Wrestling with thoughts on home repair
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I'm thinking through some home repairs I have agreed to do for my daughter next week. Normally, these things would not be a big deal, but the last such effort started as a replacement of a floor in her back room, and ended with pouring a foundation for a bearing wall that had none, filling a crawl space with gravel so I could pour a concrete floor and buttress to keep the house from sliding to the south (it had moved/collapsed about 6"), replacing failed joist systems and sub-floor (particle board sub-floors ought to be a hanging offense), and replacing the plumbing and wiring in that end of the house (what do you say when you see a 10-3 with ground wire, still connected to the box on one end, and lying loose in a crawl space secured with some electrical tape). So, the work is replacing a bay window and putting in additional joists under the kitchen, but the likelihood is there will be home repair adventure involved.
The part that has me thinking is the joists.
Right now, the kitchen is supported by 2x10's, 24" OC, 14' long. By any measure, that is inadequate. The right thing to do is to sister 2x12's to those 2x10's, and add another 2x12 in the middle to create a 2x12, 12" OC joist system. There will be some pulling out of plumbing and wiring needed to put those in, but the old stuff is pretty bad anyway. I'll let the subfloor go for now, just supporting it with patches scabbed in between joists, and wait until we tear out the kitchen floor to replace it all.
The daylight basement that new ceiling will intrude into is finished. It has a bathroom and a lot of space. The previous owner used is as a professional office which included a couple of employees, and it was very adequate. Certainly, preserving that use will preserve value in her home when it comes time for resale. I'll be tearing it all out of course, but the new ceiling height will be 2" lower in the area under the kitchen. I don't lightly add an unsightly bump in the middle of the ceiling.
The alternative is to use 2x10's. That's probably still within code when they are 12" on center, but will they be stiff enough to let her put in a tile floor (which she wants to do) and carry the weight with enough rigidity to keep the grout in place? I am inclined towards skepticism.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this beyond, "When in doubt, build it stout"?
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I can't help with joists
However, if weight is the driver, and a tile floor drives the weight, is the tile floor really a requirement? I had a floor thread here, and I really got sold on Marmoleum. It sounds prettier and just as easy to care for as tile, and none of that icky grout. It also seems to be more forgiving of the subfloor. Just a thought -- I have no practical experience.
Engineered solution
A higher end lumberyard will have an engineered system you could use and likely not lose any headroom. Run your situation by them, come armed with your proposed static load (i.e. what kind of flooring, appliances, counters, etc.) and they can put something together with the needed deflection tolerance.
I have some cart and horse inversion here
I'm running a little bit ahead of my daughter. She hasn't decided about tile, granite counters (or some other very heavy choice), etc. I'm pushing to get started because I want to be able to finish her kitchen before I leave for winter in the sub-tropics.
She's 500 miles away. I know the local yard in her area better than I have wanted as the result of the last project. Those guys are as old school as I am. But, I don't know anyone beyond that in her area. I do have some good local yards and contractors here in Western Maine that might be able to tell me about engineered materials with which I have no experience. I have a day, poking around here is a good idea.
Does it have to be wood?
Maybe a structural steel I-beam would be overkill, but you see what I mean. Might help with the form factor?
That's a great thread, thanks
Thanks Lambert. I enjoyed reading that thread, and I appreciate the excellent advice there. I will follow-up on the Marmoleum and pass it on to my daughter. I had never heard of it before.
Right now, my daughter has wide pine, and the aforementioned concrete slab (recessed 3/4" to make room for whatever she puts there). She has the same reaction to it that you expressed, it's impossible to keep the dirt out of the cracks. She and my son-in-law have waffled a bit when it comes to making a decision on a replacement. My take on that is to make the improvements that will support whatever they do and wait for their thought process to reach its conclusion. It shouldn't take more that a couple of months.
For what it's worth, I put bamboo into my home on floors with radiant heat. I would do it again. The finish is reasonably scratch resistant, and it is very stable (very little expansion and contraction). It's quite hard, maybe harder than oak.
bamboo, tile, marmoleum
my parents recently redid their floors. they were going to go with hardwood until a friend of theirs suggested bamboo. they took one look at a bamboo floor and fell in love, so that's what they got. it's beautiful to look at, easy to care for, nice to walk on, and it was in their price range.
i love love love tile, except for keeping the grout clean. my all-time favorite floor i've ever lived with (so far) is terrazzo, but if i ever get my own place and build it from scratch, i am going to seriously consider stained concrete. that should go well with the granite counter tops! ;)
i've never lived in a house with marmoleum floors, but i've visited a couple, and people who have them swear by them.
my idea of the perfect house is slab-on-grade, concrete block, on a flat sandy spot by the ocean, but if i end up in another little wooden house on a hillside, with a crawl space (like now), i'm going to seriously consider cork too.
not that any of that answers your immediate questions, so i'll just mention that the house i'm currently living in is old, has some tile, and yes, the floors have shifted since the tile was put in. i find keeping the grout looking good to be a much bigger pain than the fact that the tiles are no longer quite flat/flush, but yes, i'd say your skepticism here is warranted.
I think that putting 2 x 12
I think that putting 2 x 12 in between the current framing is massive overkill as well as being an enormous pain in the ass to construct--space is very restricted when you cut the OC distance to 12".
What I would do/have done is sister on another 2x10--glued and screwed or glued and gun nailed with 10d cement coated strip nails. I would also remove any joist hangers or, if there are none there now, use 4x8 or longer joist hangers nailed to the band joist. Solid bridging between the joists helps as well.
Your post indiates that you do not want to have a "bump" on the basement ceiling. My cellar has less than 6' of headroom in most of it's space (the floor slopes) but I would put a triple 2x6 flitch beam under the center of the span and posts on both ends (one in the middle if it's over 8' of span side to side.
My house is about 100 years old and has 2x6 joists (some with open spans of over 12 feet) on 16" +/- centers. I've sistered the majority of them with 2x4 and 2x6 and also cut most of the spans by installing flitch beams or box beams midway under the spans. The house had 8'+ ceiling heights in the first floor and it all worked out just fine.
If you don't already have one, here's a span table.
http://www.sterryconsulting.com/download...
cheers!
The idea of a secondary underfloor structure is good
Yes, I expect to be frustrated more than satisfied in the installation of these joists. I think Okanogen's idea of using plywood instead of 2x10 or 2x12 lumber is a good one, much easier to install and much stiffer too I expect. And, I agree that 12" OC is overkill, but with 24" OC even with sistered joists, it seems like a span too long. Your idea of a flitch beam got me thinking about how else to take the bounce out of the floor. I have rough sawn 7x10 white pine beams in the drive now (some of the first beams I sawed out to make a friend's barn). There is a little less than 8' of headroom in the basement. It would attractive, I think, instead of an unsightly modification inviting a discussion of original construction flaws, if I added a few wooden beams under the existing floor. I have to think about how that might best be done - but I am inclined to use a couple of summer beams, with 6x6 secondary joists between them. That's not a project for next week, but cutting the logs, cutting the beams, assembly and jacking in place is under a week's work - not too bad. It might not last, but right now I am getting the logs for free.
Don't decrease your headroom
Seriously, the 24" spacing is not that big a deal, because the subfloor (3/4" ply or waferboard) is often figured for that spacing. The issue is the 14' span, which may (depending on wood type) lead to excessive deflection with 2x10 floor joists, especially with the deadloads of utilities, counters and cabinets, etc..
But take a look at the table at this site. You will find that if the joists are #2 Doug or #1 Hem Fir, they are right at the acceptable range for where they need to be for floors. You definitely can seriously decrease deflection by doing what I said with the plywood without killing a bunch more Fir trees.
Eastern hemlock is quite possible
That is good guidance on the hemlock, but I think I like your plywood idea better. The subfloor is badly deteriorated particleboard. In time that will be going too, but not this week. We have excessive deflection even before she and my son-in-law upgrade the kitchen. There are no lighter features contemplated at this time.
The right thing to do would be to tear out her kitchen, and do it right starting with new materials at the joist level, and working up. I want to do the project in stages, mostly with my labor and in increments she can afford. It's going to take me a while to resolve the conflict between those realities.
24" centers
If the subfloor is toast, increasing the amount of joists isn't going to help, you need to replace the subfloor, and when you do, use 3/4 plywood. The subfloor is part of a system that ties the joists together and decreases their deflection, if the subfloor is deteriorated, the system is deteriorated and will deflect more based on that.
If the existing joists are the proper material, they will have passable deflection. If you want less deflection, all you need to do is add plywood to the joists as I described.
I was a professional carpenter for over 8 years, primarily framing both new construction and remodeling. I've built hundreds of houses and remodeled hudreds more. Don't over think this.
Joists
As long as the kitchen floor is not a hazard, the best time to upgrade the joists would be after the plywood is removed.
Sistering 2x10's to the existing joist will be fine, but unless you use glue between the existing subfloor and the new joist, the floor may squeak; this is true in spades for the 12"OC option. gluing and/or nailing thru a subfloor that is to be removed is (provided your own word).
You are right
I was just putting the joists in now to get the project moving and to get those mechanicals replaced. Briefly describing them: 1 1/2" black plastic drains, unvented and inconsistently sloped handling wastewater from a washing machine, and two sinks (one with a dishwasher), hot and cold water feeds that are mostly 3/8ths butyl, with a bit of PVC added, and hot water heating lines that are a mix of copper and butyl run under the outside wall. Add to that, a 20 amp circuit wired with 14/2 wire, and it's easy to see why it won't be in the way when the joist system is fixed. The time to fix the joists is before I run new mechanicals. I will be urging my daughter to put up with some squeaking after this stage of reconstruction is done in the interest of making the next stage cleaner.
What I've have done before
I've done a few things before.
One thing I've done is rip plywood and glued and stapled/nailed it to the sides of two by tens. That is a lot stiffer and cheaper than using another 2x10. plus you can more easily get around mechanicals. As for stopping squeeks, yes, they are typically at the connection of the subfloor to the joist. Usually it is old nails that have worn out their holding power. For that I have cut 2x4 material and glued the crap out of it, then wedged it up from underneath against the 2x10 and subfloor intersection (sistered on edge, not on the flat. against the top of the 2x10), jacking up if needed, and nailing or screwing it up into place, Usually toenailing it also.
I like the plywood idea, and agree it will be much stiffer
Thanks. The plywood idea is brilliant. It won't be hard to work around the mechanicals; they're coming out. Without going into details, the installation and the materials used in parts of that construction is so inconsistent with competent code enforcement that I have to wonder just how cozy the guy(s) who built this was/were with the inspectors. What have you used for glue? Is this the caulking gun construction adhesive, polyurethane boat adhesives like Sikaflex (maybe their 5200 that worked well in quick and dirty boatbuilding), something like gorilla glue, or a two part adhesive such as epoxy. It's up to my daughter what we do about squeaks, but inasmuch as this is the first stage of reconstruction, and I hope to be able to tear out the subfloor in the next stage, I'll be urging her to live with the squeaks now so as to make removal of the particle board subfloor easier later.
Construction adhesive
Use structural or subfloor construction adhesive, the stuff in the big tubes, this is its purpose. I don't know what the good modern brands are. Polyurethanes (such as Sikaflex and 5200) need exposure to air to cure. With plywood you also don't have to worry about cupping, splitting, or knots. Save the large dimensional lumber for its structural purpose.
This is an old trick. Basically you are recreating a laminar beam such as a microlam or TrusJoist. The top is in compression, the bottom in tension. The glue and staples or nails are there to resist the shear force, making the 2x10 a truss basically.
Sometimes squeeks are just personal preference, but they mean the floor is moving, and with rigid flooring, that is bad. With modern floors being screwed and glued, they are pretty much only in old houses, unless your newer house was poorly built, or was decked in the winter....
This house...
Virtually defines the term "old house."
Why would anybody want to stop squeaks?
I like my squeaks. They're a sign that there a human creatures in the house, moving about.
Salmo, I hope you'll keep us posted on this
We seem to have an outbreak of joist geekery, which is unexpected, but really terriffic.
Summer is the time for projects, so I hope newcomers will post on their own projects (if they have any going on right now).
I love the repair and remedies
threads! Especially when they get really geeky.
I'm not doing home repair right now, but I've picked up some useful tidbits to keep in mind.
Yes, I find them quite helpful
I lived in apartments my entire life before coming up here, so it's really been necessary for me to build a mental model of how houses work (or perhaps, live). These threads are very helpful for that; even if I don't build a floor, I know more about floors, and that is good.
The flip side of an old house is that they didn't build so everything falls apart in ten years. No styrofoam pediments!
It will be a couple of days
By the time I post again, I will be making sawdust. I have never posted a picture. Is there an easy way to do that?
Pictures!
Well, it works for plantidotes and cats....
Take lots of pictures. We can get them up on the site if it's a pain for you.
pictures
I know of two options, but I'm sure there are more.
I'm assuming you mean digital files for pictures.
You could join flickr (free) and post pics there. Then, you can use the embed code to post to Corrente. After you post photo, go to "share" and then get "Grab the HTML/BBCode" and copy and paste that to corrente. Choose the option that is medium, 500 wide if you want pic to occupy Corrente width. It's easy, and I've never been hassled by flickr- meaning it seems to be safe. You have to make your photos viewable by all to post to Corrente, but there are a gazillion photos on flickr, so no one will take notice of some weird floor pictures.
http://www.flickr.com/
I used process described in first part of paragraph above to post this pic. (Just taking the opportunity to sneak in a plantidote/ catidote)
I am "flickr pro" which means I get to see stats, but you don't have to join to post or do the basics. At the time I joined I had to get a yahoo account, but that was a few years ago. However, that was not invasive either.
Or you could join photobucket, and use info there to post pics. But, I think flickr is easier to use.
Edit! heh, I see the pic breaks the margins, b/c we are in nested comments. But that can be fixed.
i use photobucket
because i find it easier to use than flickr, :)