Will the FL and MI do-overs be democratic elections, or will they be disenfranchising caucuses?

It's been a bad blogging day. I'll leave it at that.

Howard Dean is in a tough spot. He has to turn a screwed up process into one that leaves as many people satisfied as possible. He won't please everyone, as A. Lincoln said, but I think he's trying to take care of as many people as possible, FWIW.

He's right to kick it back to FL & MI since they created the situation.

If caucuses end up being cheaper, why not go with them?

You're right that caucuses disenfranchise too many voters and primaries are the way to go. It may end up being caucuses because they're less expensive and the DNC isn't footing the bill.

I disagree somewhat that it's okay for Dean to simply turn this back to the states. Florida, in particular, seems to be a sympathetic case since the legislature which moved the primary is dominated by Republicans.

I'd also add that had the DNC addressed concerns about the primacy of Iowa and NH that have festered for years, we wouldn't be in this mess. Instead they chose to crack down as hard as possible on two critical November states (and harder than the rules seem to require, since they note a 50% delegate reduction) and they got the candidates to go along by scaring them over a potential Iowa and New Hampshire backlash if they didn't.

They expected to be able to seat the delegates because they expected they would have a clear nominee. That isn't going to happen, but acting like they can replace a Florida primary in which 1.7 million Florida democrats voted with a caucus is ridiculous. Add to that neither Florida nor Michigan are used to holding caucuses. The Texas caucuses appear to have been a clusterfuck. So now we're going to replace a primary in Florida with a caucus in a state that has struggled to get voting right and has never held a caucus? Disaster, IMO.

All of this is hurting the Democrats' chances, particularly Obama's, of carrying Florida n November. It's probably hurting us in Michigan, too. Now, we might be able to win without Florida or Michigan, but why write off so many EVs going into the General Election.

What makes it all worse is that the rule under which the DNC stripped the Florida and Michigan delegates required a punishment for any primary held before February 5th. Yet, SC, NH, NV, and IA aren't being punished.

The entire thing is a giant clusterfuck and the only way it wasn't going to be was if the nominating contest wasn't close. It was and now the DNC is faced with a situation where there will be an argument against whoever the nominee is, that the nominee is not legitimate, and damage has been done with voters in two critical November states.

So for the DNC to act like none of this is its problem is disingenuous at best. The entire thing is their problem because it's their convention and their nominee.

Hopefully, Dean's statement is just for public consumption and the DNC is working to resolve this issue. Perhaps a re-vote by mail among registered Democrats in both states to cut down on costs? Or something? But I don't think caucuses or simply telling the states its their problem is going to cut it.

I disagree somewhat that it’s okay for Dean to simply turn this back to the states.

I did not say that. I said he was right to kick it back to the states that caused the problem in the first place.

Florida, in particular, seems to be a sympathetic case since the legislature which moved the primary is dominated by Republicans.

This is a myth that will not die. The Florida Republicans were aided and abetted by the Democrats. They were never victims. It was a Democrat who introduced the bill.

Salon:

The Florida effort to move the date was sponsored by a Democrat, state Sen. Jeremy Ring, also of Broward, who remains unapologetic about his role. "I think we have successfully blown up this antiquated primary process," he said in a phone interview last week. "I have absolutely no regrets."

The Florida Democrats voted for the bill in the final count of 115 to 1--and then had the chutzpah to say they were being disenfranchised by Howard Dean.

And let me add that Howard Dean appealed to Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber for help in opposing the primary move to which Gelber said "I don't represent Howard Dean."

Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller stated on the Senate floor that he was offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5 only because he was threatened by DNC Chair Howard Dean. Sen. Geller than mocked his own amendment which failed on a voice vote without any debate.

Hopefully, Dean’s statement is just for public consumption and the DNC is working to resolve this issue.

I'm sure there has been a lot going on behind the scenes that hasn't been out for public consumption.

This is from one of the Texas Democratic Party's handouts for the caucuses...

There are four things you must do:
1. Call in the results of your precinct convention into the toll free results hotline number located on the “Results Hotline” flyer. (The Results Hotline toll-free number is 1-800-336-3248). Each precinct will have a unique access code to identify their precinct. The system is an automated system – simply follow the prompts and punch in the information the system asks you to input (see flyer for the process).

my understanding is that the reason the caucus results are so slow in coming in is that people failed to make the required phone calls. If rules are rules, then those precincts whose leaders failed to make the calls should be denied seats at the county conventions....

That was helpful and is good context to have,

It doesn't change my opinion since I don't think voters should be held responsible for what either the state or national parties do. I also think the ultimate problem remains the national party's unwillingness to address real and valid concerns about the primacy of Iowa and NH. This is not the first year we've had states jumping ahead in the schedule, this problem is not new and neither has been the party's refusal to solve it in any meaningful way. And I don't think simply slipping in SC and NV solves it since it still gave NH and Iowa the first two slots.

But mainly I think this remains primarily a DNC problem because its convention and its nominee are at stake. Florida and Michigan can do much more damage to the DNC than the DNC can do to Florida and Michigan at this point. So for Dean to act like none of this is his problem, even if he isn't the only cause of it, is disingenuous to me.

That in the interests of fairness, while Jeremy Ring (who seems to be more Moderate/Conservative than "Liberal," based on his Bills Introduced in 2008) formally introduced the bill in the FL State Senate, David Rivera (Republican) introduced the bill (which came first) in the Florida House.

Also, this bill was studied by the Economic Expansion Subcommittee as well as the Election and Ethics Subcommittee. The results of that study can be found here. (links directly to FL Senate Bill Page, drops to Bill Analysis. Florida Governor Crist wanted to increase Florida's influence on the Primary, and House Speaker Mario Rubio (both Republicans) pushed this measure through the House very quickly. Some of Gov. Crist's comments (as well as Rubio's) are here.

On the flip side, the Republicans simply stripped Florida (and the other "early state jumpers") of 50% of its delegates and called it a day - and even then, they may re-seat all of them...but no one's talking about it at this point, since McCain's delegate count made that moot.

It is also interesting to note that along with the move-up of the Primary, the Repubs introduced some "initiatives" to that were placed on the ballot as primary questions. So, to tell Florida democrats to "stay home" was not an option.

Therefore, the mess from Florida and Michigan is larger than even corrine's post lets on. However, some of it relates to Dean's handling of this mess, and some of it relates to the DNC completely stripping Florida (in particular) of its ability to seat delegates for the Nationals.

In other words, the DNC has once again found a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

More after the jump off the cliff...maybe.
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The enemy of my enemy is STILL my enemy. Those who forget this end up being Vulture scraps.

If they were to revote these states with caucuses, they will delegitimize this election even more than it already has been. How can you accept a tiny fraction of the 1.7 million Floridians that actually cast a ballot and say that is legitimate? People voted in record numbers. Both candidates were on the ballot. So accept the vote.

The only people that want a caucus redo are Obamabots who plan to practice more thuggery at yet another caucus. If Obama had won FL & MI, he would be demanding - as would all the news media - that those delegates get seated, that voters are being disenfranchised. How can the DNC think that a caucus would look legitimate to anyone?

that i would have. bottom line: this is not my fault. i deserve to have my vote counted when it matters and not when it serves one or another already dominant wing of the party. i hate to sound like a naydarrite, but seriously- this is supposed to be a "choice?"

the whole issue of penalizing MI and FL and not other states is the rotten egg that makes it impossible for me to swallow any of the 'logic' about "what should happen now." the whole situation has proven undemocratic, fucked in the head, favoring insiders, shadowy in method, and otherwise rigged. blah blah, count em now, "revote" whatever...it's a joke.

yes. I AM BITTER. and i will not forget in the fall. for the first time in my life, i'm actually contemplating not voting. yes, i'm sure i will. but the thought keeps crossing my mind. i can't stress enough how unusual that is for me. but at this point, it's hard to think of another way to punish the party that punished me for not favoring their annointed candidate at the right time. or the other one, now.

why is it only the DNC, made up of people very distanced from any electorate and not beholden to the voting process, gets to determine when and how individual states should vote? that is, if the logic goes, "the states made this mess and must pay to clean it up," well then- what right does the national org have then to penalize states for taking the process into their own hands?

that's what really rubs me the wrong way here. this is only "a problem" in some states. states that aren't part of the highly rigged "early voting state" scam of IA and NH. MI and FL have big minority and working class populations. they are great states in which to test the mood of voting democrats of all kinds. they should be free to decide when to hold a primary, like iowa and NH are able to decide for themselves, and respond in order to keep themselves first on the list. why some states can get around the rules and others aren't allowed is all on the DNC, including dean. hypocrisy is the thing in this world i hate the most.

let's not kid ourselves: this whole controversy is because the party and the candidates hate and fear real democracy. the rabble just can't be trusted, don't you know.

Michigan and Florida should only redo their primaries if the DNC comes up with the coin to pay for it!! Period! Why should a majority of the people in these states, who are not associated with the democratic party have to pay for the DNC's incompetence with most of their taxpayer dollars???

Michigan at least has it right and has an open primary, which is a little easier to justify, but Florida has no right to subject all the independents who are not allowed to vote in any primary in that state with having to pay for this fiasco twice!! Frankly, no state should pay for a closed primary for a political party. If the Democrats or Republicans want a closed primary, they should pay for the cost of the primaries themselves! It is extremely unfair to the independent people of the state who are not allowed to vote in either primary.

I keep seeing people on this site, say Hilary should be the nominee and democrats, not independents, unaffiliated and republicans should determine the party's nominee. Well I am fine, with that as long as your party, pays for their exclusionary policies and not force others to pay it for them.

This whole thing is the fault of the DNC. They should have done what the RNC did, and not take away all their delegates, but split them in half. And even that I think is ridiculous as a state who pays for the primary has every right to determine when they are going to run it. Not the DNC or the RNC who can't even be bothered to pay for it.

One thing I will agree with Hilary supporters on, is that this has unfairly hurt her. These were two states she probably would have won if the DNC had not screwed with the process. With that being said, Hilary was overconfident and did not think to challenge this at the time, which she should have done. Doing it now and expecting these delegates is pretty shady.

http://cpartyalleghenycounty.blogspot.co...

for providing the angry FL perspective. fuck you people, fuck the dem party, those are my taxdollars and why the fuck do you get a do-over on my dime? hell no, let's not "revote." i can't even believe i just typed that word...roads and schools are literally falling apart before my eyes in this state, and we want to spend millions of taxpayer money b/c some beltway games deprived these states of meaningful primaries? No, no my children.

anyway, SU stands with fists!

It's not like MI & FL didn't know months in advance what the implications would be. It was not a last minute surprise that their delegates wouldn't count. They decided the press and media exposure was more important than delegates. So tough crap. Live with it. No revote.

That would encourage all state parties to move up their primary and then just hold a revote later if it ends up being close.

Make the DNC pay for it. Period. Or my better idea is to implement a vote by mail. I want the nation to see how dangerous it is and how easy to cheat and steal a vote by mail system. So I really want them to do this as the cheapest, fairest and quickest way to get a revote. Please FL, send ballots in the mail to all registered Dems. (It's like the Sequoia chad thing, but in reverse, instead it would move us away from dangerous systems instead of into the arms of touchscreens).

Everybody for Hillary, step outside at just past noon and hold up a pink “H”.

Everyone for Obama, step outside just before 1:00 and hold up an orange “O”.

Count the dots. How much could it cost?

All we need is an uncloudy day…