Gandhi, his Grandson, Israel, and the Jews --
... what did Mahatma Gandhi actually think of the idea of Israel, and of the fate of the Jews of his time?
As it turns out, M.K. Gandhi engaged in sustained conversation with Jewish intellectuals of his day—many of whom were dismayed by the great man's insistence, for example, that Jews in Germany should have willingly "offered themselves to the butcher's knife."
In this essay, Shalom Goldman sketches out the little-known background to a contemporary controversy. ...
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What then, according to Gandhi, were the Jews of Germany to do?
just part of this great and very eye-opening (in many ways) article --
So, okay. Gandhi must have known about the Holocaust
before he died. Did he see that genocide as a successful or unsuccessful demonstration of satyagraha?
I'm surprised no one else asked this question.
Millions of people died, most meekly, most holding on to their identities as gays, gypsies, Jews. They obeyed orders to the end. Because they did not smile as they died, did they inexpertly demonstrate the proper love toward their murderers?
Did Gandhi consider those working for peace as cannon fodder, literally? Were their lives worth less than those of their oppressors, because he and his cause needed those lives to spiritually move tyrants away from evil? Because of that desire, did he value oppressors more than the oppressed, because of that pride he harbored that one day he could change the minds of the powerful?
Was Gandhi right up there with Hitler and Pol Pot, in using the little people for his own ends?
it comes down to intentions & goals -- and the results, no?
i'd say whether he intended the deaths of tons of people or not, the results showed that the actions of those doing the killing were not affected in any way by the attitudes of those they killed -- it didn't matter at all -- because the people themselves didn't matter.
could non-violence have ended slavery in the US?
i think it could never ever have.
and i think that if you say you have an universal principle -- it better be proven to work, and proven to succeed -- in terms of people and improving their situations -- first and foremost.
Gandhi wasn't concerned with success on those terms.
& principled nonviolence and/or “the non-violence of the weak”
2 scholarly responses to the article very worth reading -- Two letters in response to "Gandhi, His Grandson, Israel, and the Jews" by Shalom Goldman, the first by Michael Nagler, founder of the Peace and Conflict Studies Program at U.C. Berkeley, the second by Ira Chernus, professor of religious studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder:
including this part, which goes to the usefulness and practical aims of anyone looking to Gandhi for inspiration or behaviorial model for any given situation that arises --
Sounds like the worst choice
Except for all the others.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
i think his stuff is most often not applicable
-- especially for situations that are already violent and have been ongoing for a while.
and it's also very very chilling and abstract --i'd actually call it kinda inhuman, really -- in the face of actual suffering most of all.
I'd say it's not applicable
I'd say it's not applicable in situations like the Holocaust, where the goal isn't merely control and oppression, but elimination. Because Gandhi's tactics depended on a persuadable opposition, that persuadability dependent on your oppressor's ability to see you as human. That was explicitly absent in Nazi Germany, and it's not like the other countries of the world were raising the issue.
By contrast, the Raj weren't trying to eliminate the Indians, just exploit them.
isn't dehumanization part of all conflicts lately tho?
labeling the other side "terrorists" (as we do, and as Israel does) is totally not seeing them as human, whether elimination is the goal or not, no?
refusing to deal with the governments/leaders of the other side as well -- it's not recognizing others as autonomous humans either -- who in the Gaza case actually voted for Hamas in a democratic election.
things like blockades and sieges too, that prevent free movement or action, etc -- and even the development of a viable economy -- are also not recognizant of humanity and human needs, no?
I think dehumanization of the other side has been an essential part of most conflicts forever.
But for those situations that are ongoing and violent
what else would be the answer? Something new has to be tried as the old ways are certainly not leading to any resolution.
But what do I know? I don't have the force of character that Gandhi or Martin Buber had. I am not at all an evolved personality. I can only admire from a distance the faith in whatever that acting on these beliefs would require. My god what a huge gulf between the life of the mind in those days and that of ours.
The comments on the reception of Arun Gandhi's essay was very interesting in comparing it to the way Gandhi and others dealt with their differences back then.
there are plenty of options --
i think Gandhi's answer would condemn millions to death and/or continual suffering and oppression, and that the onus is not on the powerless and oppressed -- but on the more powerful -- to change their behavior -- always.
But that's a recipe for paralysis
I don't think any of us on this blog have a lot of power; we're too busy blogging.
I like this analysis from what I grant is fiction; Richard Morgan's Woken Furies:
Where was it written that being disempowered is the same as being righteous?
And surely the "onus" isn't what matters here. It's not a matter of fixing blame b but of getting things done.
Obviously the rulers are responsible for the mess they've made for us in ruling. That's a truism, but it gets us no forwarder. In fact, since the Our Betters are precisely the ones who will not change their behavior -- and why would then, since "things have worked out very well for them" -- things will change when and if the powerless change their behavior. And if the change is simply for power to accumulate in other hands... Well, what is the point?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
getting things done starts w/ stopping violence & oppression --
that's why the onus is on the more powerful and the oppressors. They're the ones who are "getting things done" with their violence and oppression and are the ones who are responsible for the situation in the first place.
I don't see any engagement here
I see incantatory repetition of the previous truisms. As well as the assertion (made in different language elsewhere) of "plenty of options" without discussion of what those options might be. (Ruling out 1917 and 1789 tout court; see comment on accumulation above.) I don't doubt the sincerity of your response to suffering; but sincerity is one of the more over-rated virtues....
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Je repete, since there is no engagement...
... "incantatory repetition of truisms."
I'm no expert in I/P. But after 5 years of blogging and many thousands of posts, I know empty rhetoric when I see it. And despite the sincerity and despite the real suffering, this rhetoric is empty. And it's harmful, because empty rhetoric can't engage with real problems; it can only repeat.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
but aren't you then agreeing with what I believe was Gandhi's
point? At least what I think the article described:
That you are relying on those in power to change their ways over time, that they are capable of redemption and this is what would lead to the freeing of the oppressed?
The article also makes it very clear that Gandhi never put a time limit on when this might occur.
But to assume that the likes of Hitler etc.. would eventually, through the example of perhaps thousands of martyrs, decide that what he was doing was morally wrong is a fascinating idea. I don't agree myself, but again, what in the world is going to make oppressors change their behavior?
what is going to make oppressors change their behavior?
many things would.
that's the point -- it's not up the oppressed alone to act in ways that may or may not change the oppressor's behavior -- especially in most current situations.
what we have now is unaccountable oppressors -- US, and Israel -- and a web of dependency too, that goes beyond those 2.
there has to be accountability placed on the oppressors in one way or another -- and the oppressed can't do that effectively -- they're not in a position to do so, and usually never are -- if they were, they wouldn't be oppressed in the first place.
and "fascinating ideas" that don't stop suffering, but enable it
and consider it "better" -- while people die! -- are absolutely not a help.
No one should be applauded for passively going to slaughter -- especially when there's absolutely no accountability on those slaughtering them.
Again, a recipe for outraged paralysis
You write:
If the oppressed can't, and the oppressors won't -- to accept that dualism for a moment -- then where is the accountability to come from?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
the accountability comes from pressure of all sorts --
being placed upon those doing the oppressing.
whether it's economic punishment or legal, etc -- or actual violence to stop theirs.
Isn't that the million dollar question?
But, in most cases it comes from the outside. Applying that to this most recent situation, though, the mediator nation is not an honest broker and never has been. And, to the oppressor, the global government may as well not even exist, because they don't even look to it as a legitimate mediating body. The only hope I see is if the main mediator nation truly becomes an honest broker. Otherwise, there is no hope.
One thing is for sure, neither side has enough bombs and rockets and bullets and jails and so on in the world to change the other's mind.
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
there is hope, bec we've helped in the past --&
we weren't an honest broker then either.
there are no honest brokers anywhere -- there are only people, and governments (who are powers, and also have a variety of powers -- to use or not use).
And who will supply that accountability?
wasn't it countries with their own history of oppression that eventually put an end to Hitler?
and?
isn't that actually also good for those oppressed at home as well those being helped by them elsewhere?
is a country who oppresses their own to be prohibited from stopping oppression elsewhere if it wants to? why?
shouldn't the very fact that it wants to help be seen as a sign of progress in itself? and as hopeful for those at home? (and hasn't that actually happened as a result, too? look at our military, and integration, and how that helped civil rights overall)
no one alive has clean hands -- anywhere.
I'm inclined to think they helped
not because of some noble purpose but through self interest, mainly fear and power. Actually I am half agreeing with you and half not. No one gets their rights handed to them, they have to take it. In this I part company with Gandhi. But I do believe that the need for action is by the oppressed themselves. There is no Justice League to sort out the oppressors and make them give it up.
sure it was self-interest -- and that goes back to Gandhi too --
if oppressors are acting in their self-interest when they oppress, and those reacting to oppression are also, and those outside the immediate situation are also, then it doesn't matter -- if the oppression stops. I think so, anyway.
The oppressed can't always act alone and stop things or change the situation no matter how hard they try -- the 20th century has taught us that very very clearly, if previous eras hadn't.
Awesomely radical
Amberglow,
This is infinitely fascinating, and confusing all at the same time. It all has a very Jesus-esque sound to it. I'm really not sure where I come down on it, but man is it deep and something to think about. I'm definitely going to re-read and think about this. What I've always leaned towards, even since I was young, though, was the belief stated above by Gandhi that as long as their is breath in a body, no matter how evil the thoughts, that it can always be redeemed.
This view, which I've leaned towards, is either absolutely naive or absolutely true, and if it's absolutely true than it is absolutely necessary to have. And, if it is not absolutely true, then their has to be a more effective worldview out there, and I'm still searching for that.
Now this is a thoughtful thread, Amberglow. Thank you for this.
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
it's meaty, no?
i think that you can't just look at people in such a one-sided way -- because of history and reality.
if all people have the potential for good, they also have it for evil.
if all people are redeemable, then how do you get them there -- and what are you willing to accept along the way?
And what does that say about how humans are to be valued -- or not -- and about who is valued in that situation? Doesn't it sacrifice some humans for others? And doesn't it actually make the oppressors and evil people more important than those who have to be sacrificed?
Where is their worth in all this -- especially when they're the acted-upon and not the actors?
Why is redeeming the evil people more of a goal than stopping suffering or the value of those harmed?
Too many
Too many questions all at once, my friend.
It depends on what the oppressed are given to work with. But, regardless, what won't redeem anyone, in the end, violence. If those are the wages the oppressed want to buy freedom with, they'll get it back in kind, if not immediately, down the road.
What doesn't? Are you really asking about the degrees and levels of sacrafice? EVERY act of violence has a human cost/toll, but, again, it's not always immediate.
You've got a lot of questions, but could you make your case for violent acts and use the term? You've tried to talk down non-violence, I want to see you defend violent retaliation head-on and not in some removed and abstract way. If non-violence is not the ultimate and absolute answer, than prove to me by historical example that violence is and that it is worth the cost.
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
humanity has made the case for violence -- both as
ways to relieve oppression and to cause it -- over and over and over -- for eons. That it can be used both to cause harm and to relieve harm.
i think the case needs to be made that non-violence is an effective answer to the continual power imbalances among groups and the continual violence committed by the powerful against those less-powerful.
and a case needs to be made as to why it should be considered as the most important goal -- especially because success wasn't Gandhi's aim, nor was relieving suffering.
"converted the latter to an appreciation of human dignity"
-- no one should die for such a goal -- ever! -- esp when there are other ways to achieve it -- and it's besides the point to begin with.
The oppressors always see themselves as already having that appreciation.
Why is this not contradictory?
Immediately #1 above:
And #2 further up:
In fact, I go with door #2. It's precisely because -- I would argue -- that so many of the Framers were slaveholders that they were determined to prevent tyranny. And it's exactly because all humans are capable of evil that the none are to be trusted with power and the system of checks and balances was devised.
That's why I reject "the oppressors" as language -- it's simplistic, since anyone oppressed can become an oppressor when power accumulates in a new place. And because it's simplistic, it's dangerous. If things get a lot worse here, it's going to be not only simplistic, but actively harmful.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
but the framers were fine with their own tyranny over others --
that goes back to the "honest broker" stuff. they intentionally excluded the majority of people from our Constitution--and outright owned some of them, but that doesn't mean the Constitution is then bad.
checks and balances is what i'm talking about -- and when you have them, you have them for the previously oppressed turned oppressors as well.
they need to be applied -- in all forms.
and they must be applied against those oppressing others first and foremost.
then when needed must be applied against the newest oppressors, and so on, and so on...
like--sometimes we're both at the same time--
we oppress some as we are also oppressed by some -- like the American Revolutionaries.
being oppressed, tho, is always seen as worse -- and acted upon -- even when the oppressed also oppress others.
confused
Maybe I am missing something but the word oppressor describes one based on the action one is taking. I am a pedestrian when I walk. When I am riding in a car I am not a pedestrian. We can still talk about actions which benefit pedestrians even though at any given time any individual may or may not be a pedestrian. The word oppressor is very useful in that it identifies individuals engaged in a particular action. Thus the focus is on the action which needs to be stopped rather than on the individual. Focusing on the action allows for more freedom and creativity in developing strategies to stop the action, rather than focusing on personalities. It is the oppression I want to stop. If stopping the person doing the oppressing does not stop the oppression the whole exercise is somewhat futile. If someone being oppressed starts oppressing then by virtue of their action they become oppressors. However, as the focus is on the oppression itself the personality of the individuals doing the oppression is less important.
that's how i feel, empty--
what we do to others -- the actions and their impacts -- need to be the focus always.
That's not how the word "oppress" is used, clearly
Nobody coming to this thread for the first time. could possibly think that the word "oppressor" is being used with the same neutrality as "pedestrian."
The rhetoric is entirely binary: Oppressed (Palestinians) and "the" Oppressors (Israelis). As I've pointed out numerous times on this thread, it's simplistic: At best tendentious, and at worst actively harmful. Yes, suffering is bad. Yes, people would rather not suffer. Buddha said that the cause of suffering is desire so, eliminate desire and you don't suffer. That solution seems not to be on offer here. What solution is on offer, besides tanks or rockets, is not clear to me. I thought that amberglow's policy goals at the top of this thread were terrific. Maybe somebody can explain to me how to get from point A to point B by
cheerleadingthe vehement repetition of shibboleths?"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Your mileage does vary.
When I hear the word oppressor I do think in terms of the oppression rather than in terms of particular ethnic/national/religious groups. From the discussion it seems so do Amberglow and others. Maybe it is because I have known many people that have been both oppressor and oppressed - sometimes at the same time. If you think about it, probably you do too.
I am sorry you did not get anything out out of the discussion except the "vehement repetition of shibboleths." I did - it helped clarify my thinking listening to people much more articulate than me - and I thank the participants.
Yes, that will happen
If you believe that "the oppressor" and "the pedestrian" are similar usage patterns, then your mileage does, indeed, vary. Far from the norm, I would say.
As far as "thinking about it," er, yes I have. See my comments in this thread. The idea that the oppressed in one context can be the oppressor in another is not exactly a novel one, and is certainly not novel to me. It's exactly because the rhetoric obscures that reality that I object to it.
You argue, when challenged, that "oppressor" is contextual. But when not challenged, "oppressor" reads as essentialist -- a category mistake. And the proof is in the pudding: "Oppressor" in this context is short for "Israelii" (never mind the Israeli opposition) and "oppressed" in this context is short for "Palestinian" (never mind Fatah, say, not exactly Democratic). I question only the language, just to pre-empt, here.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
it also stood for Indians under British rule, &
as Gandhi himself used it, for Jews under Nazis.
there are larger points here you're refusing to discuss -- humans being oppressed by others and/or oppressing others --throughout our whole existence as humans -- and what to do about it.
that's why i posted this -- if Gandhi's "non-violence" is brought up whenever a situation arises (as it was brought up in Vast's thread), maybe we should know more about it overall -- and about his view of a situation ongoing during his times, but a situation not directly connected to his own struggles. no?
And the Holocaust has much to do with the current situation too, so it's even more relevant.
also -- isn't essentialism exactly how Gandhi and his grandson saw Jews? (as i've shown)
and how does that reconcile with his goals of changing the views of those doing the evil?
I think this kind
of passivity is the product of magical thinking, meaning religiosity. I noticed that throughout history there has always been some type of (grasping....) oppressive hierarchy that teaches the oppressed that they will go to Heaven, or various other forms of bliss, if they will simply suffer. Suffering is always rewarding, in the after life, in these (pernicious) pervasive hierarchies.
In a very concrete way these teachings keep the multitudes meek and non-threatening.
There are a thousand ___?____ that tell people to accept their lot; "The meek shall inherit the earth" "If you die in Allah's cause you will....,what ever" Bla, bla bla. Prayer in these cases are the only dopamine injections the people get and they wear out their knees seeking it.
Essentially, I think the oppressed are oppressed because of 'magical' indoctrination.
Confusion
I think you are confusing non-violence with passiveness. Gandhi believed in non-violence but he was certainly not passive. All his actions were designed to gum up the workings of the British empire in India and force them into a situation where it was more cost effective for them to leave. Non-violence simply gives up one tool - that of violence - to achieve the desired end. However, violence is seldom the only tool available and sometimes it is the wrong tool for the job. If one decides that violence as tool is not available - whether due to ideology or necessity it permits one to think more clearly about using the other tools which are available.
Yes, non-violence is NOT necessarily passivness
For instance, people can refuse to work for oppressors, regardless of what the oppressors do to them. Eventually, the oppressors will have to change their behavior, or nothing will get done.
Not passive at all. Just the refusal to cooperate can really do a lot. And that can be difficult in the face of violence. It takes a lot of courage and strength to be non-violent.
Like that saying goes, wars will cease when people (men) refuse to fight. If everyone didn't follow the sociopaths that want to hurt others for their gain, then the sociopaths wouldn't be able to do their damage. There aren't that many sociopaths.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is a lot." - Albert Einstein
On "magical thinking"
You know, I'm starting to get a bit offended by the potrayal of a non-violent philosophy as some "Dirty Fucking Hippy" BS, and be talked down to about reality vs. idealism, especially from so-identified liberals and progressives. This is exactly the crap conservatives and defeatist liberals and progressives use to tarnish and thus trash those doing the right thing.
Really, let's get out of the weeds, here; let's stop beating around the damned bush, already. I want someone to make the case that Hamas rocketing Israel is effective to their ultimate goal and also defensible because it is right. It'd also be good if folks could actually reiterate what Hamas' ultimate goal is to begin with.
I do expect more from progressives and liberals than to pretend that being more right/correct than the other guy somehow gets you past threshold of being "right" oneself. I'd also expect that these self-indentifieds wouldn't be so bold as to use the "pragmatic" and "practical" Village
bullshit aguement to try and debunk non-violence as a paramount philosophy for the left.
The philosophy of non-violence is no more unrealistic, and nor more "magic" than war-mongering.
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
it's the other way around - what people practically do to others
is the whole point -- especially if discussing the applicability of theory to the real world.
people everywhere recognize as a general operating principle that all people everywhere don't want to be harmed or oppressed or killed.
people everywhere recognize too that some actions are right or wrong -- dependent in large part on their effect on other people, as well as on who is doing what to whom, and what the result is of that action -- on people.
Passivity & Defense
My point is that hierarchies have used religiosity to control the populace forever, IMHO, and the effect has been generations of people accepting their 'lot', even Ghandi. However, though he was in fact a religious person and drew on his beliefs to repel the British, he won. But, passivity does not equate liberation. Also I think that his beliefs cannot serve other causes, in respect for the varieties of deprecations of the despots on the populace.
The amount of surveillance in today's world pretty much precludes revolution or defense.
It is a question of defense. And that defense can take many forms depending on your oppressor.
I think you are misreading
I think you are misreading Gandhi. He never advocated anyone accepting their lot. In fact he felt that oppression had to be actively opposed. He just did not accept violence as one of the tools to be used for opposing oppression. I am going to use a bad example here - hopefully you will see beyond my lack of clarity to what I am trying to say. Suppose you were a member of the American revolutionary forces and you proclaimed that one of the things you would not do would be to kill British children. One can imagine someone arguing that to take this option of the table was harmful to the struggle, but it would be difficult to argue that by refusing to kill British children you were somehow refusing to resist.
Gandhi was an excellent strategist and his various actions were at the very least contributory to the expulsion of the British. The British contrary to general opinion were not gentle people. These were the people who had come up with the idea of concentration camps and had conducted quite brutal campaigns against Indians. If we remember Stalin as a mass murderer because of the millions who died because of his collectivisation policies, we should also put the British in the same category as their brutal agricultural policies in India led to millions of deaths. What I am trying to say is that the British were as ruthless as any other imperial masters and for Gandhi to successfully oppose them required more than a saintly persona. The guy was good. Really good. What he showed was not that being nonviolent would always win the day but that it was possible to win without using physical violence.
Agree
I am only taking one of the views, at this moment, and that is of the oppressors manipulations over the eons, in regards to passivity and its use of religion/state.
But I think that we can all agree that passivity and non-violence are not one and the same.
"But, passivity does not equate liberation."
It sure doesn't. I think, as others have pointed out, though, that if anything, you're actually the one equating non-violence to passivity, and that is where we'll have to go our seperate ways, because non-violence is no such thing.
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
Again, non-responsive
I don't see any engagement at all with Damon's comment, amberglow. I hear more iteration of truisms and shibboleths -- by definition not applicable.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi