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The Obama vs. The Romney Round II

An open thread, especially for drinking games. Here are a few live blogs:

NPR.

CNN.

No doubt there are more! I have to write tonight's Campaign Countdown, so I can only listen with half an ear. Document the atrocities!

7:46 PM I looked around for a link to a video that was up, but didn't see one. Maybe closer to the time.

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Submitted by lambert on

http://www.cnn.com/

I guess I'll watch there, because at least it didn't cut out last time.

The Romney's motorcade just arrived!

Ya know, I hardly ever watch TV, and boy, do those faces look weird! Demonic, almost.

Submitted by lambert on

Both of them are using their sincere voices.

Poor Jeremy. If he believes either of these assholes are going to get him a job, he's in deep trouble.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/Pragmactivist99/status/258375275543425025

Eureka Springs's picture
Submitted by Eureka Springs on

They showed footage of Jill Stein and her VP Cheri Honkala being arrested by the D vs R corporation police for simply trying to get into the "debate" hall. As of debate time Amy didn't even know if they were out of jail.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/16...

It's way past time to quit calling D vs R's anything but horrible people. Whatever we have under them is an antithesis of democracy.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/DMogahed/status/258376829096841216

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Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/CoreyRobin/status/258379138023444481

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/vastleft/status/258379845933858816

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Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/anamariecox/status/258380273950007298

Submitted by lambert on

Patch:

While President Barack Obama and his challenger Mitt Romney will get the red carpets rolled out for them at Hofstra University Tuesday night, Green Party candidate Jill Stein got a far chillier reception when she and her running mate were arrested near the debate site.

A video posted by LI Report, a Hofstra student news website, shows Stein being blocked by police from entering the debate. On camera, Stein called the debate itself a "mockery of Democracy."

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/jillstein2012/status/258381479762096129

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Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/tyleroakley/status/258376057693020160

Submitted by lambert on

.... isn't the same as telling the truth.

Obama seems much less shifty in his lies.

Romney is far more shifty. On the other hand, now, Romney's lying as he moves left (on contraception for example)!

Then again, I could be wrong. After both candidates doubled down on tax cuts, Obama now blames Bush's tax cutting polices... for something.

* * *

Each of these guys is so second rate.

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Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/JasonLeopold/status/258384696793255937

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

least inspiring. More boring than the first one, IMO.

And, hey, how is it that President Obama gets to trot out the "poor struggling single Mom" meme again, and again, when his Mother (Ann Dunham) held a PhD in Anthropology? I'm surprised that Republicans have never called him on that--he is so misleading in his implications.

[Obama's hard luck story also never includes the fact that he attended the top private school in Hawaii, the Punahou School, from 1971-1979. The school was founded in 1841, and presently has a student to teacher ratio of 1:12.]

"The American People" are sooooo propagandized, it's pitiful.

Submitted by YesMaybe on

Another election with two prep school educated Republicrats. C. Wright Mills nailed it in The Power Elite, pointing to prep school as the formative bonding experience for the people on top.

Submitted by dirac on

I'm having a hard time figurin' how holding a Ph.D. in anthropology constitutes well-to-do. Can you explain? Even back then a Ph.D. in the humanities was the low rung.

I know there's plenty of other about Obama's background to identify him as a willful and enthusiastic servant of the upper classes and although this is boring folksy rhetoric I don't see it as awful as the refusal to even acknowledge actual poor people.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

I read all the time that the Obama campaign targets poor and low income women, especially minority women. If you listen to his words (I don't have time to check out the transcript tonight, but it will read the same that it always does, I'm sure), his implication is always that he grew up struggling and disadvantaged in a household headed by a "single Mom."

It is very dishonest. I never stated, nor implied that his Mother was "well-to-do," and get your point. I believe that she worked with the USAID. Having served in a professional (federal civil service) position myself, I can vouch for not being "rich." But again, I never said that.

And I've also never implied (nor would I) that I've struggled like a Mom with only a high school diploma. And it is rather ridiculous for him to imply that she did. (His Indonesian step-father had a master's degree.)

The Obama campaign has carefully and intentionally created, or crafted a false persona for him, in order to appeal to low income single women. The clear implication is that he comes from a "working class background," which he didn't. I believe that he's mentioned "being on food stamps," as a child. Well, during the late sixties and seventies, it was easy for a college student to qualify for them, if they "declared that they were self-supporting, and parents didn't claim them as dependents on income taxes." (I have no clue what the policy for students is today.)

If he had actually helped these single Moms through his policies, I would respect that.

What I don't respect is intentional misleading embellishment and deception.

Submitted by dirac on

Sorry, I'm late to reply. Thanks for that thorough and clear response. Agreed that I'd trust their marketing as far as I can throw it. ;)

Submitted by lambert on

This sounds to me like the racist talking point disguised to me.

* * *

That said, Obama's voice makes me want to throw things just like Bush's did.

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Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/gabedelahaye/status/258386611987968000

Submitted by YesMaybe on

And after Romney thinks it's Lorena and finds out it's Lorraine, Obama asks her if it's Lorena. Fool me once, shame on you...

Eureka Springs's picture
Submitted by Eureka Springs on

If I knew very little or thought of myself as undecided or centrist/independent Romney would be winning my vote tonight. (again)

Either way, D vs R, we are so screwed.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/CarlosQC/status/258389681807437824

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Submitted by DCblogger on

I follow this on Twitter. Only tonight is not nearly as fun as the previous debates.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

As Lambert's post earlier today points out, they're all in it together. And they (candidates and moderators) are all about "keeping any meaningful information" out of a public forum.

What a tragedy that a "fortune" will be spent on this sham election.

Oh, great! President Obama just said that he and Romney agree on education policy--privatizing our public schools.

I'll be glad when this ends.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/NatashaChart/status/258389837986549760

https://twitter.com/JasonLeopold/status/258389845364322305

https://twitter.com/Shakestweetz/status/258389907008024576

Submitted by lambert on

Which is pretty amazing. I haven't followed this closely, but when Hillary has to fall on her sword...

Submitted by hipparchia on

some days i really love the internets.

quixote's picture
Submitted by quixote on

to listen to / watch this stuff, but reading the comments here I find myself wondering: Wasn't it a poor single Grandmom who raised him?

(What was it King Lear said? Something about serpent's teeth and children.)

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

mistaken, his Grandmother Madelyn Dunham did not attend college, worked her way up from a bank secretary, to be the first female bank Vice President at a local bank. Saw that in Wikipedia, or somewhere, right after she passed away.

But, having risen to that level (for quite some years, as I understand it), I can't imagine that he grew up underprivileged.

[Update: Here's a quote from Obama's book about his Grandmother from Wikipedia -- "Obama considered his grandmother 'a trailblazer of sorts,' the first woman vice-president of a local bank." Here's the link.]

Submitted by lambert on

Two complete mediocrities. It will be interesting to see what the spin will be.

"Obama came out swinging" seems to be the line.

Eureka Springs's picture
Submitted by Eureka Springs on

moments.

When I hear words like

Grow Jobs
Gov't doesn't create jobs
Free trade
Hunt them down
Clean coal
pro charter schools

Submitted by jawbone on

underrated as an A #1 Asshole.

He's as least a world class A #1 Asshole Extraordinaire.

He just showed how incredibly entititled he feels himself to be, once again running roughshod over the debate/townhall moderator. It was almost stunning that he then proceeded to do it over and over again. It takes some brass ones to be such an asshole on national TV.

He has no respect for anyone who is not of the Point Zero One of the One Percent.

I kept thinking that Romney would rather filibuster than let the people ask their questions of him. And his underlying attitude is that "those people" have no damn right to think they can ask questions of him! He and Ann have answered as many as can be borne.

Oh, and that fake sincerity? If he becomes president I may have to stop watching and listening to any news programs. But, somehow, I think the pandering attempts to at least sound sincere will be gone if he wins. He will simply be outright unbearable.

What a sickening choice the voters of this nation are presented with....

okanogen's picture
Submitted by okanogen on

With a new Rhianna haircut.

As my wife described him.

Submitted by Aquifer on

85% have a MUCH better choice than either DnR .... and i am going to try to catch her this AM on DN, though after 6 hours handcuffed to a chair, she might not be fully charged ...

Submitted by Hugh on

You all have my sympathies for watching this debate or as I like to think of it, meaningless and likely highly irritating bit of political theater. I avoided all of the debates for this reason. I simply do not care which lies Robama tells and with which lies Obomney responds. There is no information content for me in this at all. I don't care who wins and who loses. The truth is neither of these guys will lose no matter what the result of the election is. Both will have secure positions in the 1% for life. At the same time, you and I, we will lose no matter which is elected in November. That is all I need to know, and I knew that a long time ago.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

criticizing President Obama, doesn't mean that I endorse (or like) Romney.

Wouldn't consider voting for either of them.

To some extent, though, I'm more troubled by a faux populist Democrat, than a blatantly plutocratic Republican. IMO, the two candidates are quite close ideologically.

Bottom line, I believe that a Democratic president would be more successful at eviscerating the social safety net programs, than a Republican president. Hope that makes sense (which is not to say, that I expect everyone to agree.)

Submitted by jawbone on

misstatments, iirelevancies, interruptions designed to throw off both his opponent and the moderator actually has a name -- Gish Gallop. It's what conservatives have been practicing on talk shows and television for years now, but I never realized it was a deliberately designed and trained in technique -- I just thought they were assholes.

But it is something developed somewhat well, and people can be trained to be such assholes.

Fascinating. And Romney was a bit so obvious about using it that it caught the attention of those who pay attention to public discussion techniques. Hence, it may become publicly known and people will be able to recognize the assholes using the technique. That would be a nice outcome, btw. Shaming hasn't worked to tamp down its use, but with the public in on it being a learned technique just might make it old hat or stinky garbage.

Search brought up several references to Romney after the initial Wiki entry for "Gish Gallop".

Submitted by lambert on

That's a real addition.

It is true that Obama doesn't use that particular tactic.

Then again, when I heard him say, as if he were being accused of it, that government doesn't create jobs, I nearly threw up.

RedQueen's picture
Submitted by RedQueen on

Before I go punch someone on Tumblr.

The term Low Information Voter is a classist dog whistle meaning poor whites in the same way that Welfare Queen is a racist dog whistle mean poor black women. The only difference is the party affiliation of the person saying it.

Now I have to shut my computer because I am ignoring the boyfriend in my rage typing.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

racist term.

I use it from time to time, but it applies, IMO, to everyone who doesn't actually know or understand various "policies," as distinguished from corporate or mainstream media "talking points." (That is regardless of race, sex, educational level, income, etc., etc.)

Now, I have heard a couple of "lefty" talk radio hosts (Ed Schultz and Mike Papantonio come to mind) use the term, and are constantly talking about working class folks "voting against their self-interest, if they vote for Republicans." Maybe these guys are making that implication.

But I assure you, RedQueen, some "regular folk" use it meaning just what it implies, and nothing more.

Submitted by lambert on

At least for those of us who went through the trenches in 2008, anybody who didn't vote for Obama was a "low information voter" by definition. Just like they were a racist, by definition. (The quotes from The Obama Bear in this video really are true.)

In addition, there's a trope in at least some factions of the Democratic Party that, in essence, "We're smarter than [fill in blank]," and this is the crowd that tends to deploy the "low information voter" trope. But by "smarter" they mean "credentialled."

So the term is more charged than one might think.

That's not to say that there aren't low information votes, just that all low information voters are not quote low information voters.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

may be implying that someone who doesn't support Obama is a LIV. They are definitely Obama Administration "cheerleaders," and they are both quick to see anyone who doesn't support Obama as "racists."

To be honest, the only reason that I spoke up is that I do occasionally use the term (I did here, just several days ago), and I did want to clarify with folks here that I truly don't use the term, that way.

I mean it in the literal sense. For me, it is sort of interchangeable with "casual, uninformed" voter. The type that actually votes for the candidate "that they'd rather have a beer with." (Certainly, I don't have a bone to pick with RedQueen, either. LOL!)

IOW, that term is part of my vocabulary, but I in no way resemble the Schultz's or Panpatonio's of the world, nor am I intentionally using it to demean or make a racist slur.

That's all I was trying to convey.

RedQueen's picture
Submitted by RedQueen on

under the eternal threat of unemployment unless we produce MOAR MOAR MOAR NOW NOW NOW.

My tiny little act of rebellion is that I don't have my cell service with this company and my password contains the name of their competitor JUST BECAUSE I CAN. All work and low pay means not a lot of brain space for Elizabitching.

How are you Lambert?

Submitted by lambert on

... working harder than ever for less money than ever... But OTOH doing what I ought to do. I have no hostages to fortune.... About to give birth to another theory of everything.

okanogen's picture
Submitted by okanogen on

That one really needs to be a glossary term, just like Welfare Queen.

Low Information Voter - Democrat shorthand for poor white trash. See "bitter cling".

Welfare Queen - Republicrat shorthand for a poor single mother receiving any kind of government assistance, including food stamps. Once exclusively referring to black women, now with racism dead expanded to include poor white women, especially ones with black children. Racism is dead, right?

Where are you going to punch them? The face or the gut?

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

or less informed voter be more appropriate? I'm certainly not here to intentionally offend this, or any blogging community.

I was quite engaged politically in 2008, but was not "blogging." I had no context (until last night) as to the connotation of the LIV term in the blogosphere.

So what would be the appropriate term for describing folks who are not knowledgeable of policy, and/or vote based upon some vague "gut feeling?" Or, is the point "that no one should be referred to as lacking information?"

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

until several months ago, I thought when I saw (((screen name)))--that it was the same as someone "cupping their hands" to call out someone (not negatively, just to get their attention).

How pitiful is that? I suppose that I should have educated myself better, and sought to learn texting and/or blogging language before I ventured out. But I didn't.

My point being, this is still a learning experience for me.

Submitted by lambert on

And also with a ton of history together and a great concern for clarity of language (which has its own history). So not to worry.

* * *

I don't know what ((((handle))) mean. What does it mean?

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

a blogging community full of strong opinions," (as I admittedly have) they should expect some push back. Trust me, I don't feel victimized in the least.

Seriously, I am quite open to learning. And, I enjoy lively, honest and informed debate, immensely. So, if and when I inadvertently say something offensive, I thank those who call me on it. Since the use of the term LIV is offensive to some, I will use another expression. Continuing to use LIV would only be counterproductive and a distraction, and clearly serve no useful purpose.

My understanding is that (((screenname))) is shorthand for "sending hugs." Some folks use (((hugs))), instead.

So (((hugs))) to all you guys that I've offended. :-)

Submitted by lambert on

... which is one thing we do....

From your adjectives, I like "casual voter." It's not so much of a put-down and it focuses on behavior not motives.

Also, it's more a question of the baggage the term brings with it. Remember, in other places, people may assume that you accept all the connotations that we've pointed out, even though you don't! It's more about accurate use of language than giving offense (at least to me).

Submitted by MontanaMaven on

seem to know what Obama's real positions are, I wondered if they too are low information and somebody corrected me and said, it is "misinformation" or disinformation. That is because they read a lot of online articles of Huff Post, Alternet, and The Nation. So they are not casual voters, but misinformed partisans perhaps? I would say it is more emotional or faith based voting also.

Submitted by lambert on

... "low information." What I really do not like about the "low information" voter trope is that it puts the onus only on the voter.

Mis- and disinformation, however, are systemtic problems.

The disinformed voter...

The misinformed voter....

I came to Casa Obama for the waters heh heh heh....

okanogen's picture
Submitted by okanogen on

Silber might call LIV an example of the power of narrative. It sounds innocent enough, but it hides a huge amount of baggage, class and cultural contempt, dismissiveness, on and on. Pernicious.

LIVs are the people the party machines could buy votes from for a shot of whiskey. It's techno speak for the rubes in fly-over land. The unwashed masses, easily distracted by something shiny. It includes purists, third-party voters and anyone else who doesn't understand the "practical", the "adult", 11-dimensional chess, and other received wisdon enjoyed by the more "enlightened". The attitude is in both parties, and this attitude is an inherent element in both Romney's lies, as well as Obama's and the professional Dem's response to Romney's lies. It's inherent in the way media portrays the election as a horse race, rather than actually looking for information. It's also a chicken and egg story, are the voters "low information" because they don't have the capacity or interest to learn the "information", or are they "low information" because nobody will ever bother to give them any? Somerby would argue the later.

For example you will never become "high" information by watching these debates, or even watching TV news. Everything is about "binders" and whether Romney was sufficiently courteous or rude, his hairdo, whether they were going to "almost come to blows". Substance, or actual information, is an afterthought, if thought at all. So in a sense, nearly everybody in the Unitied States is "low information". I guess that is the other side of the coin, who are these "high" informtin voters any way? boo-fucking-man?

okanogen's picture
Submitted by okanogen on

Come to think of it, I'm sure there are alot of people who thought they were "high" information voters, only to have the last 4-6 year's events demonstrate that their information was either low, or, as you say, they were High Misinformation Voters.

Many examples come to mind, including my own journey.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

No one detests the "adult in the room" meme (pertaining to the fiscal clift, etc.) more than I do.

This is rich. Never realized that the corporate media was addressing me, when they reference LIVs. :-)

RedQueen's picture
Submitted by RedQueen on

No doubt about it. Harder on the hands but more satisfying when you connect. That's how us Low Information types roll.

Submitted by jawbone on

staff developers to find qualified women. He did get "binders" listing qualified women, but that had been developed before the election by a group of women concerned about the low number of women in positions of responsibility in MA state government. When he won, they gave him all the names and bona fides.

Romney lied about ASKING to have such a list developed for him. In other words, he accepted the list, but had never initiated actionn to obtain it.

That's our guy with the ready lie at work lying to the public.

But, for him, lying to non-Mormons is almost a duty of a good Mormon, so, his church will forgive him these lies. Actually, he would be derelict in his duty as a Mormon to not lie to increase the church's numbers and power.

Submitted by lambert on

A hand reaches up from the swamp of Massachusetts politics, encircles Romney's ankle, and drags down.

Submitted by lambert on

... which I've now forgotten the name of! Even if I don't accept the empire at all, hence her role in managing it, the tumblrs are still great.

Alice X's picture
Submitted by Alice X on

What a f**king farce!

The two corporate candidates debate?

Not a chance.