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Rules and by-laws open thread

Hard power, soft power, or both, or neither?

Iphie, you out there?

Document the atrocities from CSPAN or CNN

Hey, "document the atrocities." Takes me back. Remember when we used to do that all the time?

UPDATE Confluence is there, credentialled. Ditto TalkLeft.

UPDATE Interesting media frame from Nelson:

In weeks leading up to primary media kept telling voters they would not count, still they came out in record numbers. vote was certified by sec of state. Passion reflected in numbers. They went to polls in FL despite being told votes don’t count. Even without campaigning in state. The people took it to the streets. Nelson is telling com how citizens took it upon themselves to campaign. Says RBC should not get in the way of those voters’ passion.

He's right about that. Vote suppression by the press on behalf of Obama has been a key part of this campaign (and this is, indeed, a new kind of politics).

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amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

Bill's there! : >

Dean was ok--i don't know what bringing up FL2000 is supposed to do.

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

is this guy really quoting Robert's Rules of Order?

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

i don't think--it was another white haired redfaced guy working the room : >

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

(and he was condescending too--"Obama should be commended bla bla bla"--they had to call order because of the noise.)

and he's seriously yelling and all red--too weird.

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

but turnout for the primary was way way higher than 04--it seems that Obama ppl are pushing this for some reason--why?

in 04: "With 6,363 of 6,733 precincts reporting, Kerry had 538,216 votes, or 77%. He was followed by North Carolina Sen. John Edwards, who had 70,922 votes, or 10%. Edwards folded his presidential campaign last week.

Elections officials said voter turnout was low after Kerry essentially sealed the nomination with a strong showing in last week's Super Tuesday contests. Kerry also won primaries in Texas, Mississippi and Louisiana. " -- http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicsele...

beadfulheart's picture
Submitted by beadfulheart on

in 2008 from 2004 but only a 7% increase in total population. So... be sure to penalize everyone for the 11 or 12 unmotivated folks that stayed home to whine about being left out.

Submitted by hipparchia on

have been arguing, among other things, that the 2008 democratic primary turnout here would have been much higher if all the party apparatchiks hadn't been telling us so emphatically nyah nyah, you don't count!

we're also angry that this lowered turnout hurt floridians, by allowing republicans to enshrine in our state constitution yet another way to wreck the state and local budgets, but the dnc can't be bothered to care about that.

what obama was saying jan 29 [the day of florida's primary]:

Obama dismissed the contest Tuesday, and his campaign issued a statement declaring the race a tie in the delegate count: "Zero for Obama, zero for Clinton."

"I probably think it's a snapshot. It's a beauty contest that's similar to a poll of where people currently are at in Florida," Obama said. "But none of us has campaigned there, so people have no idea what the respective candidates stand for, haven't had a chance to look them over, kick the tires."

beadfulheart's picture
Submitted by beadfulheart on

A 163% increase in Democratic voters is phenomenal. How many more voters, that *really* would have voted, could there have been? Jesus wept.

Submitted by hipparchia on

it's possible that it would have been even higher had our votes been actively courted, rather than actively pooh-poohed.

do these two have a case?

Among the proposed alternatives for seating the delegates from Florida and Michigan is to use the results of the primaries that already happened, based on the argument that doing so would avoid disenfranchising the 1.7 million Floridians and 600,000 Michiganders who already voted. However, doing so would disenfranchise many people from Florida and Michigan who did not vote in the earlier primaries because they did not expect their delegates would be seated at the convention. Based on a statistical comparison with turnout in other states’ primaries, it appears that roughly two million more people would have voted in Florida and Michigan had they expected their delegates to be seated.

Although the Democratic turnout rate was impressive in Florida and Michigan, it was not nearly as high as it has been in other primaries so far. Of the first 37 states that have held either a primary or caucus for both Republicans and Democrats, only six states have had a larger turnout for Republicans than for Democrats: Florida and Michigan, plus heavily Republican Alaska, Alabama, and Utah, as well as Arizona, where many voters turned out to support home state favorite John McCain. In many other states, Democratic voters outnumbered Republican voters by at least 3 to 2. Simply stated, in states where Democratic voters expected their delegates to count and the candidates spent time and money campaigning, Democratic turnout has vastly exceeded Republican turnout. The fact that Republicans outnumbered Democrats in Florida and Michigan suggests that many would-be Democratic voters in those states chose not to vote at a much higher rate than in other states.

i dunno, but we had 4.i million registered democrats eligible to vote and 1.7 million of them turned out. 41% turnout for a race billed as historic as this one? probably could have been higher.

Submitted by hipparchia on

even the word is funny to say. yes, i consider them to be vastly disenfranchising, and i'm puzzled as to why people everywhere don't demand primaries instead.

i'd like to have my vote for edwards be counted, but i can live without that. what we really needed was to get the vote out to defeat the republican-devised, republican-backed 'wreck florida's finances' amendment that was voted on at the same time.

the present primary process is stupid. if enough other states had the temerity to say fuck you and the roolz you rode in on to the dnc, it would get fixed. then again maybe not.

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

did you guys defeat that finance thing?

I think it'll never get fixed -- the DNC believe that moving Nevada and SC up actually fixed it all.

Submitted by hipparchia on

it needed 60% of the vote to pass, and got 64%. with even a 50% democratic turnout, instead of the 41% we got, we might have been able to defeat it.

already the schools, parks, and police and fire departments in my area are in trouble and cutting back spending and services because of this measure, but that's nothing compared to the drop in tax revenues that'll start this october, at the beginning of the new fiscal year.

i'm sure the dnc did at one time believe that moving up two more states fixed the primary problem. maybe if we keep agitating enough, we'll be able to pound it into their thick skulls.

ironically, i'm kind of grateful for the stalemate between the obama campaign and the clinton campaign on this. it's keeping the issue in the limelight longer than it would have been had there been a quick and amicable settlement.

we really do need to keep showing this up for what it is -- a failure of the process -- rather than letting people turn it into something that can be dismissed as the actions of a couple of 'rogue states.'

Submitted by lambert on

I can't get any video to work on this stupid machine...

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

beadfulheart's picture
Submitted by beadfulheart on

rhetorical flair. Someone needs to take him aside and tell him to give it up and ffs turn it down.

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

and contrary to the other FL ppl, did not emphasize counting every vote.

BDBlue's picture
Submitted by BDBlue on

We understand that Michigan voters are frustrated but fuck 'em.

Unity, Unity, Unity.

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

and this kind of game (an Obama standard operating procedure, we all have learned) is not possible in the general election--what will they do then?

the DNC are patsies, but there's no Committee to game and play with in Nov.

BDBlue's picture
Submitted by BDBlue on

but there were caucuses in WA, NE, and ID and primaries and the DNC chose to count only the caucuses for selecting pledged delegates even though many more people participated in primaries (and then there's Texas with both). And I'm supposed to believe the party cares about ensuring maximum participation.

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

for the caucuses but not the primaries? (states pay for primaries and the DNC pays for all caucuses, i've heard)

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

Isn't it odd, how quickly we become accustomed to extraordinary things.

I was there at Kennedy for one once; absolutely fantastic. If you're watching this, I was standing right where the flagpole is now, along the lagoon. You see the flame, the smoke, and the shuttle starts to rise, but from a mile and a half away it does so in silence. Then the sound comes, a roar so much louder than you could ever expect, the ground shakes and you feel the vibration coming up through your legs at the same time the shockwave in the air presses on your face and chest.

Money damn well spent.

beadfulheart's picture
Submitted by beadfulheart on

for my young grandson today. I think it was about the longest he's ever remained silent since learning to talk. He was impressed and that's hard to do!

BDBlue's picture
Submitted by BDBlue on

It is amazing isn't it. I remember watching Columbia land for the first time. Amazing then. Amazing now.

I would love to see a shuttle launch live.

And, yes, most of the space program (except the manned Mission to Mars ridiculousness) is a good buy. When it's not, it's because they're allocating the money badly. One of the differences in this campaign is that Obama would cut the space program. IIRC, to pay for education of all things.

More science, please. That's a good thing.

Submitted by brucedixon on

This is one of the things the MSM doesn't talk about, but a lot of us are seriously concerned that the great bulk of the space program has long been a cover for the militarization of space.

This article suggests that the militarization of space began with Rumsfeld in the current administration, but that's BS. It's been going on a very long time, practically from the beginning of the program. I mean the guy in charge of the Apollo program was the same fellow that constructed V-2 rockets for the Nazis using slave labor.

This is a warfare state. It cannot conduct a space program with clean hands. In that spirit, they can cut it to ribbons for all I care.

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

they're over an hour late already getting back...

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

How many more times will the R&B Chair tell Harold Ickes to SFU?

I'm going to go with five, but that could be low. I'm guessing the holdup now is a knock-down drag-out over rules, but not about the delegates. Rather, they are negotiating the rules by which the rest of the hearing proceeds; who gets to talk when, for how long, and on which topics. Ickes and Brazille will be the ideological troublemakers, and neither will be satisfied whatever gets decided.

Kabuki. 100% of delegates will be seated. Pledged delegates, the ones selected by the actual elections, get 1/2 vote; the SuperD's get a full vote. Nothing will be materially changed in the delegate race. Donna B. will be unhappy, Ickes will be unhappy, SOS. Voters from FL&MI, mercifully, will no longer have any reason to whinge. Thank the FSM for that relief.

Oh, BD, you young thing you. I remember Jupiter rockets exploding on the launch pad and Wehrner von Braun saying "Vell, ve vill do better ze next time, I zink."

Submitted by lambert on

What about the popular vote?

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Submitted by lambert on

What a surprise. Hey, who needs FL?

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Submitted by lambert on

After the 15-12 failure (says RD). That's what the chanting is about. Good.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

they're substituting their judgment instead of using "fair reflection" of 600,000 voters and their votes.

He's right--they're creating votes for Obama out of nothing.

Submitted by lambert on

Big time. Thanks.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Submitted by lambert on

Just like Jeralyn said.

Taking votes from one candidate, and giving to another. And don't give me that "the Democratic Party is a private institution" shit. They keep this up, they'll have a lot more privacy than they do know.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

amberglow's picture
Submitted by amberglow on

this really is the end of the party, i think...totally unacceptable.

Submitted by lambert on

Fuck, there's even a glossary entry for it.

Who quoted Fanny Lou Hamer?

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

orionATL's picture
Submitted by orionATL on

i'm here.

i'm reading you all's great comments.

but i'm just sitting here, not knowing quite what to say,

with a little funny, sick feeling in my stomach. (i'm not kidding)

feeling the tingle of anger starting to rise along the back of my neck and up to the back of my head.

all i keep thinking is

is there some way to harness and focus the rage that many votes say they feel at the

institutional, impersonal, insider, we're-hold-the-levers-of-power-fuck-you

way the democratic party is being run.

it's the anger you feel when you KNOW something unfair has happened

and you KNOW that those in power know it's unfair

and you KNOW no matter how reasonable your plea, that they are going to ignore that plea

and not do a god-damned thing

because they have their private, hidden set of rules for what's fair or not.

you get a hearing; you just don't get listened to.