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New Taser cam works - watch cops taser drunk 24 yr old to death

intranets's picture
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Cops in small town Oxford, Ohio, home of "Izod" University, tasered a drunk 24 yr old outside of a local bar for interfering when they were trying to arrest another person. You see can they administer at least one 10 second cycle. The man stopped breathing at the scene and died after five days in critical condition.

You'll note if you watch the video again, but look at the timer in the bottom right, the media spliced together the same footage to make it appear he was shocked three times.

Now again, alcohol probably made things worse for his breathing, etc. and I'm sure he died from complications of five days in critical condition. But, it's hard to imagine the taser isn't the cause of death.

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scarshapedstar's picture
Submitted by scarshapedstar on

All these folks were set to die of natural causes, and then, coincidence of coincidences, they get zapped with the World's Safest Device, and... well, you know the rest. It's all so unfortunate for the good folks at Taser.

But I still believe
And I will rise up with fists!!

Aeryl's picture
Submitted by Aeryl on

(I think it was over at Lawyers Guns and Money, before the CDS kicked in)But I read that the number of people who died after being tasered the past year, is more than those who died in disputed police shootings, over several years.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

myiq2xu's picture
Submitted by myiq2xu on

deadly force.

------------------------------------------------
Real Democrats aren't afraid of democracy

48 + 2 = legitimacy

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

Haven't had a good tussle over tasers for a while, and apparently there are some new anti-taser voices to be heard from. I'll deal with this incident as part of the larger review, but I do want to say a couple of quick things here.

According to local papers the young man was fighting and out of control for some time, ignored repeated warnings that he would be tasered and did not exhibit any breathing problems until after he was handcuffed. He died five days later, probably from brain damage due to lack of oxygen from his respiratory failure. What was the cause of death? Was it a neurobiological reflex from the alcohol (possibly along with whatever else he may have ingested) and the violent exertion, a syndrome known for over a hundred years? Was it positional asphyxia from the handcuffs, also a well-established and frequent cause of in-custody death?

Intranets, what justifies this headline of "taser...to death"? Do you have any actual evidence that the taser in any way contributed to this death? No, didn't think so, but it sure does scream doesn't it? Well done.

Even his family are asking people to hold off making judgments: "No one feels this loss more deeply than we do; however, we still request that people refrain from rash judgment and wait until the independent investigation of this event is complete."

Aeryl, that report you pass on sounds like BS. If you have a link, or actual data to present, love to see it. Otherwise, passing along unfounded and inaccurate rumor only serves to fuel hysteria that ultimately will do nothing but obscure the true cause of these deaths. More data, less rumor please.

MyIQ, I'll be back with a big piece on tasers soon, we can have the full discussion then. Meantime, do your homework on those questions I asked above, as well as these: What else should the police have done? He was fighting with bouncers and the police; he wouldn't stop even when warned about the taser. How long do you feel the police should fight with someone before escalating force? How many other people should be injured to protect the criminal from injury, and what level of injury should the innocent people be prepared to sustain? What kinds of force may the police employ in this situation? Should they have beaten him with clubs, would that have been better? How about pepper spray, which has been documented to cause death and is rarely used any more? Should they have shot him?

Aeryl's picture
Submitted by Aeryl on

until then, to answer your question

How long do you feel the police should fight with someone before escalating force?

I used to work hospital security, which mainly entailed wrestling and restraining the drunks the police brought in, and mental patients who wouldn't cooperate with the staff. It is completely possible to incapacitate someone, without resorting to tasers, pepper spray, clubs or guns, and police should know how to use them.

what level of injury should the innocent people be prepared to sustain?

I was never seriously injured while doing that job, but others were, and we barely made minimum wage. It is part of the job, and they knew that when they signed up, especially police officers.

And compounding the problem with tasers, is that overzealous cops, believing that tasers are "non-fatal" don't use them correctly. The tase suspects multiple times, for extended periods, which is not their recommended use.

*UPDATE: Here is the report on the 300 taser deaths in 2007. I am now unable to find a report on how many died by being shot by cops, with your mad skillz, maybe you can find it, BIO?

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

is just a statement, not backed up by any data and no further link. Just part of the "Scary Taser Rumor Mill" is all. I'll be back with my mad skilz in a while, got some more verbage to sort through. Meanwhile, any actual links to actual data or real scientific cause-and-effect is always appreciated.

Agreed that many times drunks and mentals can be safely subdued. Sometimes, though, they just won't quit. This particular incident started with two bouncers, two violent suspects and one bicycle cop. When the taser warning was made, one suspect stopped fighting and the other did not. With the bouncers holding the sensible guy it was just one-on-one for the cop with a big out-of-control violent man. Swarming doesn't work one-on-one, so I ask again - what was the cop to do? Let himself get beat up? That's part of the job description? Seems to me a lot to ask, no matter what the pay scale.

Gratuitous violence is always wrong. All of the gratuitous violence here was from the suspects. This death came as a direct linear result of the suspect's own behaviors, possibly/probably coupled with a neurobiological defect. It was not the result of the taser or the fault of the police; he'd have died anyway. Happens hundreds of times a year with no taser involved. Only when there is taser use does it make headlines; that's coincidence, not cause-and-effect.

myiq2xu's picture
Submitted by myiq2xu on

is one thing. Using one on someone who just refuses to cooperate is another. ("Don't taze me bro!")

A few years back a police Sgt in Madera, California shot and killed a hogtied suspect in the back of a patrol car.

She stated she intended to Taser the man but accidentally drew her .40 caliber semi-automatic pistol instead of her Taser. The death was ruled accidental/justifiable.

My question was why did a hogtied suspect need to be Tasered in the first place? The Sgt. was not alone (there were several other officers present) and the suspect was already restrained.

------------------------------------------------
Real Democrats aren't afraid of democracy

48 + 2 = legitimacy

intranets's picture
Submitted by intranets on

Intranets, what justifies this headline of “taser…to death”? Do you have any actual evidence that the taser in any way contributed to this death? No, didn’t think so, but it sure does scream doesn’t it? Well done.


Yes, title is over the top. It's a cheap digg approach, but I feel justified in that I'm making up for all the name semantics that Taser Intl and the police get to play with the "causes of death" and for all the cops that don't even get suspended one day for tasering a cuffed in-custody person.

So, I'm not losing any sleep of it.. Now the actual justification...

The Chicago Tribune went with "Chicago man dies after Taser hit by Ohio police". And I wish you could for once agree, this man would not be dead if let's say he never met cops and went home and slept it off. Maybe, but we don't know right. Maybe it was the fighting or wrestling. Regardless, I still think it is probable that electrocution messed with his cardiovascular system. Was the alternative 20 batons to the skull or a bullet? I don't know. Seems to me he might have lived with a bullet wound.

Anyways, just a dead person after being tasered isn't news. It certainly is too commonplace around here. I posted this because I believe the video footage is the new upgrade to the Taser with the night vision IR camera that clips to the bottom of the weapon.

So, yes, we've hashed this over before and I respect you data on this, but I think it's crazy to keep saying that.. gee he died because he stopped breathing. All coroner's reports should just say death from heart stoppage.

Isn't it ^possible^ even a little that a taser could cause problems with the heart and/or breathing. Or make it worse in the situation of a cracked out dude or severely drunk one??

intranets's picture
Submitted by intranets on

Watch cops taser drunk 24 yr old ^^who eventually dies after five days in intensive care because he stopped breathing and it has nothing to do with a taser that you can prove medically or in a court of law sorry for your^^^ death

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

If he'd gone home and slept it off, he'd probably still be alive. Wish he had, as surely does everyone else including the cop who tasered him. Don't you think?

But that isn't what happened. He went out of control emotionally (you agree attacking two bouncers and a cop is "emotionally out of control" I hope) and got in a prolonged fight. Something happens to some people, and only some people, who both get intoxicated and/or gripped by delusion and then acutely raise their body temperature with physical exertion. They subsequently suddenly go limp, stop breathing and die. Nobody knows why, but some new information suggests it's a genetic neurological defect. The signals to breathe and cool down get scrambled and turned off. The body overheats, and breathing stops.

People who get wildly out of control frequently come under the authority of the police; some of them get tasered. Almost all of them get handcuffed, in a position that probably doesn't help. Then some few of them stop breathing, as they would anyway; the taser is only something that happens some - but not all - of the time on the way.

I really want to see the cause of these deaths discovered, and a solution found. I worked for several years on just that problem but, wouldn't you know, was not smart enough to figure it out. What I'm very sure of is that the taser does not make it worse. I can't agree that tasers are killing people; if I thought there was even a small chance, I'd be a major critic; I just don't see any evidence.

We've talked before. I'll put up a big piece soon with lots of new information, and enough attitude for us to chew on each other some more. It's a good thing, actually, that we don't all agree on everything. I do respect your position, and as always look forward to a spirited discussion. For the record, I don't think you suck.

Aeryl's picture
Submitted by Aeryl on

In my hometown, we recently had a mentally ill man, who decided to go walk naked in the street. He didn't hurt anyone, he just held up traffic. Several cops showed up, and instead of attempting to subdue him, which is in their job description, they tasered him. Unknown to all involved, including the suspect, he had a pre-existing medical condition, and the repeated taser strikes killed him.

In this situation, with one cop, against someone who only had his fists, I am of the opinion that the cop should know how to take someone down, even if it means getting a little roughed up in the process. A cop should have to pay a visit to the hospital, before they pull a taser on an unarmed suspect. If the guy had a knife, yeah taser him. But if one able-bodied cop, can't take down a drunk(who I don't care how out of control, is incapable of normal motor function), they don't need to be a cop, let them write parking tickets.

The reason cops are so careless with taser use, is because it is marketed as "non-lethal" which is hardly the case. If cops respected their tasers, like they are trained to respect their firearms, we would see a lot less of these cases. Which is why I don't respect attempts to downplay the seriousness of the consequences of using a taser.

I'm still trying to find documentation of my earlier claim, so be patient.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

I'll be here all week.

This is a topic with a rich history at Corrente, interesting in the Chinese way. (Is that a racist thing to say? So much PC lying around these days.) We'll have plenty of future opportunity.

No one, least of all me, is arguing that tasers should be used willy-nilly. Some cops are bad cops, just like there are bad doctors and bad nurses and bad mechanics and bad lawyers; if they didn't have tasers they'd be abusive some other way. My argument that tasers are safe is not the same as arguing that they can be used whenever.

The naked mental guy also falls under the category of delusional and physically worked up. He's a classic case of fatal hyperthermic delerium; the taser again was just a happenstance. There are hundreds of these every year that don't involve a taser; we just don't read about them because they don't make big headlines.

Aeryl's picture
Submitted by Aeryl on

He was not a case of hyperthermic delirium(which is not a medical term, he had a pre-existing condition. And I'm not arguing that all the cops who tase somebody to death are bad cops. They are sadly uninformed about the severity and dangers of taser use, which encourages them to be overzealous, because they see as an easy way in incapacitate someone, without having to actually do anything. We all appreciate things that make our jobs easier, but cops use them in situations where it is unwarranted. They don't respect the damage they can do, whereas every cop is trained and lectured in the proper use of a firearm, because of the damage they can cause. IMO, tasers are up there with firearms, and need to be treated as such by law enforcement.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

May be I have confused it with another similar case. I'm always open to new evidence.

I know "fatal hyperthermic delerium" isn't a medical term, but we do need words to identify what we're talking about and this is a very real phenomenon - or perhaps a spectrum of phenomena, just not clear as yet. If you have a better term, please share.

As to that hypothesis of yours about dangerous tazers being overused by uninformed, lazy cops, I'll put it off until my big post. Tasers aren't dangerous and while inappropriate use happens it is not common; or at least so the data say.

Aeryl's picture
Submitted by Aeryl on

Eyewitness account of the incident

Cause of death, attributed Bell's Mania and Excited Delirium

I may be confusing Noles, from the links above, with James Borden, but here is also a story that disputes those findings, which I just found(learn something new everyday;).

When you compare the number of taser deaths, to say drunk driving, it seems silly.

But I am the type of idealist who believes that the role of law enforcement, is not just to catch criminals, but to look out for everyone. But I'm also not big on meekly bowing for Authori-Tie, and can sometimes see a situation where a person might not be happy with a police officer. Especially if the person is not capable of coherent decision, like Noles. In these cases I believe it falls onto the responsibility of the officer to ensure nobody dies. If some idiot has a knife, or a pipe, tase the shit out of them. Zap that motherfu&%er!

But too often we are seeing them used on people who are already restrained, and it's not the end of the world if a suspect gets a foul mouth, or even agitated. An officer of the law should be able to take it, and if anything, soothe the situation. A lot of cops, it seems, don't want to do that anymore.

Anyway hope this helps.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

We've talked about both Nolan and Borden here. Not with complete resolution, mind you. As I wrote above, with Nolan there was psychotic delerium and physical exertion; Bell's or something like it, almost surely, and a wrestling match instead of a taser wouldn't have made for any better an outcome.

With Borden, from the original ME: "He found that Borden had heart disease and toxic levels of two drugs, but that the stress from the Taser is what pushed him off edge." Severe cardiomyopathy with two drugs at toxic levels, and blame the taser? Would a wrestling match have yielded a better outcome? Doubtful. Tasering someone already institutionalized is dicey, no argument; don't have enough details to know exactly the circumstances. Maybe justified, maybe not, but if physical restraint was needed it appears highly likely that he would have died from the struggle, taser or no.

IMNSHO. Others here have disagreed.

With Borden, the second pathologist Wecht (he's a pompous ass, but very smart) raises the observation that a shock with the barbs at the abdomen and buttocks certainly precludes a cardiac shock from the taser, but does not dispute the original ME's finding; the physical effect, not the electrical shock, may have contributed. My argument is that the taser per se was not the instrument of death. Any form of restraint would have produce the same result; the underlying cause of death was drug overdose, cardiomyopathy and overexertion. The taser just happened to be there, as he proceeded down a pathological path already laid. Shame, so much self-destructiveness.