NATO Aggravated Enuf to Recognize & Cut Its U.S. Puppet Strings?
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Craig Murray was a member of the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office for over 20 years. He served in 5 countries and took part in 13 formal international negotiations. As a result he declares:
I have in consequence a great many friends among ex-colleagues in both British and foregin [sic] diplomatic services, security services and militaries.
I lost very few friends when I left the FCO over torture and rendition. In fact I seemed to gain several degrees of warmth with a great many acquantances [sic] still on the inside. And I have become known as a reliable outlet for grumbles, who as an ex-insider knows how to handle a discreet and unintercepted conversation.
Mr. Murray asserts that NATO is terribly unhappy with what is happening, not only with Israel and the United States concerning the Gazan flotilla attack, but also with the U.S. in Afghanistan.
First the Israeli issue:
What I was being told last night was very interesting indeed. NATO HQ in Brussels is today a very unhappy place. There is a strong understanding among the various national militaries that an attack by Israel on a NATO member flagged ship in international waters is an event to which NATO is obliged - legally obliged, as a matter of treaty - to react.
I must be plain - nobody wants or expects military action against Israel. But there is an uneasy recognition that in theory that ought to be on the table, and that NATO is obliged to do something robust to defend Turkey.
Mr. Murray stresses that to the NATO military officers, "the freedom of the high seas guaranteed by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea" is a major priority. Turkey was shrewd, Murray adds, in calling an emergency NATO meeting after the Israeli attack. Obama's weak response to the attack was not only offensive to Turkey, but to NATO, a very vital organization to the United States.
Murray goes on to say that NATO HQ is very unhappy with the Afghanistan war.
There are already deep misgivings, especially amongst the military, over the Afghan mission. There is no sign of a diminution in Afghan resistance attacks and no evidence of a clear gameplan. The military are not stupid and they can see that the Karzai government is deeply corrupt and the Afghan "national" army comprised almost exclusively of tribal enemies of the Pashtuns.
You might be surprised by just how high in Nato scepticism runs at the line that in some way occupying Afghanistan helps protect the west, as opposed to stoking dangerous Islamic anger worldwide.
Murray points out that the financial problems sweeping over Europe are impacting "every European military." He continues, "The only glue holding the Afghan mission together is loyalty to and support for the United States." Murray also speculates what the NATO members after such substantial loyalty and support of the United States, especially the serious loss of lives, really think of the United States and the Obama administration that could not even make a decent, respectful "gesture to support Turkey" especially while considering that Turkey is a NATO member, and was attacked by a NON-member.
Here are Murray's "money quotes" which perhaps foreshadow trouble ahead for the willfully-blind-crony United States government in terms of Israel and with its quagmired status in Afghanistan:
Even the Eastern Europeans have not been backing the US line on the Israeli attack. The atmosphere in NATO on the issue has been very much the US against the rest, with the US attitude inside NATO described to me by a senior NATO officer as "amazingly arrogant - they don't seem to think it matters what anybody else thinks".
Therefore what is troubling the hearts and souls of non-Americans in NATO HQ is this fundamental question. Is NATO genuinely a mutual defence organisation, or is it just an instrument to carry out US foreign policy? With its unthinking defence of Israel and military occupation of Afghanistan, is US foreign policy really defending Europe, or is it making the World less safe by causing Islamic militancy?
I leave the last word to one of the senior NATO officers - who incidentally is not British:
"Nobody but the Americans doubts the US position on the Gaza attack is wrong and insensitve. But everyone already quietly thought the same about wider American policy. This incident has allowed people to start saying that now privately to each other."
Maybe time for NATO members to stop enabling an amoral perpetrator of violence and injustice, one that makes the world ever more insecure and unstable.

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Comments
I have been wondering about the NATO aspect all along.
I would have thought that, given the stated purpose of NATO, and the fact that Turkey is a member of NATO, there should have been some kind of response from NATO. Even Israel admits it occurred on international waters. And yet it barely seemed to be an issue in the reporting.
So, this report makes sense - and I am glad to see it brought up.
I felt that NATO, which was expanding, had outlived its usefulness. But, this shows that the U.S. is trying to play it both ways; it highlights the contradiction in our stated policies.
thank you, Fran ... international laws trashed once again?
Both Israel and the US are suffering from mighty arrogance ... we make up our own righteous reality, and everyone else, as Thomas Friedman so eloquently puts it, can "suck on this."
I keep hearing more and more nice things about the source for this article, Mr. Murray. One of my acquaintances writes:
Craig Murray has had his own blog for years -- enponymously
titled Craig Murray.
jawbone--thanks-you are saying some important things
on this site. appreciate them.
Along with teaching me what "enponymously" means. :)
Israel doesn't have to worry about NATO
I doubt very much whether Israel, or anybody else for that matter, cares about what the well-paid but useless people at NATO think. It's an obsolete organization, that exists solely for the purpose of protecting its own existence. As well demonstrated in Afghanistan, it can no longer be considered a serious military force, and doesn't appear capable of carrying out successful military operations. They're certainly not going to attempt to mount any military operations against Israel, since they know they'd lose, among other reasons. Nothing else matters on the ground. And I don't think anyone at NATO is going to be looking too closely at the technicalities of the law here, since that would undoubtedly raise the issue of a NATO member (Turkey) engaging in attacks on other nations, which was clearly what they were doing.
Time will tell, but I'm afraid Turkey has done itself considerable damage here, and made a bit of a fool of itself. To attempt to "liberate" Gaza by disguising a dozen jihadists as "peace activists" is rather pathetic, and really emphasizes how weak Turkey is and how far it is from really being in a position to be any sort of regional power. If this was their attempt to take a position as leaders of some sort, it failed miserably.
I don't see that Israel has really been damaged at all. A few public pronouncements by some politicians for political purposes, but no real sanctions or actions. The blockade holds, and Israel remains secure and prosperous. Neither Hezbollah or Hamas are in a position to fire any of their rockets, which is what counts. Those that criticize Israel already were in the habit of criticizing them, they're mostly anti-semites and are going to criticize anything the Jews do, but people know where they're at. If anything this incident helps Israel by publicizing the dangers of anti-semitism, and making people aware that the anti-semites are very violent people and do indeed represent a genuine threat to global peace and security. If anyone is hurt, it's the Palestinians, who have gained absolutely nothing (the aid was promptly delivered by Israel but Hamas won't distribute it), continue to be isolated and suffering, and are now just a little bit further from peace than they were before. (Not that this was ever about the Palestinians, it was always about making war against Jews, I'd just thought I'd mention them.)
(And the British are always and virulently anti-semitic (anti-everything really), so no one pays much attention to them. They're always trying to start a war up somewhere, it's what they do. It's kind of embarrassing to see them still strutting on the global stage as tho they were still a world power. Sometimes one almost feels sorry for them, doesn't one?)
Evidence, please
You write:
Surely there are at least two propositions here that are false.
1. Israel's critics are mostly anti-Semites.
2. What Israel does is the same as what "the Jews" do.
I'd like the evidence and reasoning behind both propositions, please.
This is a second request
Because I'm still waiting.
How about some equal time
There's been alot of general and harsh statements made about Israel and Jews. Would be good to see some substantiating objective links too. Though I know personal feelings and attitudes can be intangible things.
Consider this a third request
It may be that mikep will be happier in one where evidence-free "hit and run" posts are encouraged.
equal time
possibly it doesn't really count as equal time or as substantiating objective links, but it was the best i could pull together for now.
1. just so you know what my personal bias is; and now for some of the reasons why...
2. this conversation:
-- hamas charter: drive israel into the sea
---- negotiating in good faith or bad, who cares?
------- wtf?! [ok, so i stated it badly, more in a moment]
---------- hamas, then and now
---------- palestine and israel, then and now
3. after reading a couple of books [and a lot of other stuff, actually] i did come to pretty much this same conclusion.
4. so, can you make a credible argument against viewing hamas and the al-qassam brigades as roughly a parallel situation to that of sinn fein and the irish republican army?
If you please...
I'd really appreciate your thoughts on what would happen to the Jews in Israel if Israel was "unfounded." How would that exactly come about? Do you, or does anyone else who claims this is the way to peace in the Middle East, have an idea of a practical, non-genocidal method of implementing this solution?
I've stayed away from this discussion because, as lambert says, it's pure poison. But as a Jewish person, it is amazing to me that otherwise kind, caring and empathetic people would advocate for "unfounding" with a straight face.
I am not a Zionist; far from it. My support for Israel's existence results from the perception of necessity, borne out rather strikingly by many events in the past in which Christians (not Muslims) tried to wipe all Jewry from the face of the earth.
I contend that just because the government of Israel does things that we can justly and rightfully condemn, that does not confer some type of righteousness onto Hamas and Fatah. Hamas and Fatah cannot be appeased by anything Israel does, and therefore, are a huge part of the current impasse we find ourselves in now; something that the American Left, much to my dismay and despair, does not seem to be capable of comprehending.
I do not see why the Left can't critique the government of Israel, which I believe is as cruel and authoritarian as our own at this point, without going into these disturbing and horrifying fantasies of "unfounding." Again, I have no particular attachment to that part of the world, not being religious or Zionist - I just want to make sure that another Inquisition, or Holocaust, is not what comes of a laudable desire for the liberation of the people in the camps.
My many cents, as usual.
i said it was my personal bias
not that i'm advocating for it
this will have to be quick,
this will have to be quick, and without nuance [or even further discussion probably], because my computer is acting up.
what you and others say about hamas and fatah is analogous to what we all thought of the ira and sinn fein 30 or 40 years ago, so no, i'm not buying any statements that 'they will never be appeased by anything israel does'. this was basically true for as long as ariel sharon and yasser arafat were alive to hate each other. it may or may not still be as true today.
the original zionists going to palestine were a analogous the religious outcasts from england going to america, and what the isralis are doing to the palestinians right now is analogous to the americans and the trail of tears.
the idea that jewry will only be safe by running away from the christians who hate you and tried to wipe you off the face of the earth to establish a state among the muslims who hate you and have ostensibly vowed to wipe you off the face of the earth is illogical, and very probably even stupid, but the kind of horror and fear engendered by the holocaust in jews everywhere, but especially the survivors and their descendants, is not amenable to logic or reason, and probably won't be for generations to come, if ever.
combine that with the guilt felt by millions of non-jews [and their descendants] who failed to stop the holocaust and never want to see another one happen again and with the evil machinations of those who profit from manipulating everyone else's feelings of guilt and fear and horror to keep both turmoil and a non-arab state alive in the middle east and here we are.
my own preference would be for the state of israel to dissolve and for the jews to live there as jewish palestinians, or palestinian jews, while the preference of the present israeli govt seems to be for taking over all of palestine in the name of israel and driving out all those who won't consent to live there as israeli arabs. the first is not going to happen in my lifetime [and maybe never] and the second appears very likely to happen in the next generation or two.
equally quick
Apart from some aspects of the Sinn Fein and America analogy, I disagree with most of that on first read, vehemently. And the unfounding view on the earlier comment, furiously. I respect your opinions on most else you write about, so I appreciate your opinion here and will take some time with it.
Fyi not that it matters, I am not Jewish or Muslim. I'm agnostic.
sinn fein
this is actually something of an academic debate, because hamas is pretty much well into the process of turning itself from a radical fringe group with a militant terrorist wing into a functioning and viable political party, whether any of us westerners like it or not. and i don't like it actually - hamas is a reactionary and theocratic organization, but they were democratically elected to office [something we americans purport to value], and they were elected pretty much because the citizens of gaza saw them as 2% less evil than anybody else.
And the unfounding view on the earlier comment, furiously.
that's fine. it's a radical view. i don't actually expect anybody to agree with it. and for a number of reasons i don't actually advocate it as a solution, in large part because i don't actually want anything bad to happen to any jews or israelis and it's still far from certain at this point that the palestinians would be benevolent rulers right now.
"for the jews to live there as jewish palestinians,
or palestinian jews." How does that work out under sharia?
Seems like a pony named Kumbaya.
Not all historical problems have solutions
Except in the sense that the solution to the Prussian problem is that Prussia no longer exists.
Though it is probably true that nobody ever thought Sinn Fein would accept the political process.
Though it is probably true
Though it is probably true that nobody ever thought Sinn Fein would accept the political process.
or be accepted into the political process either.
a pony named kumbaya
very possible. definitely true in the past, probably true now, and very possibly true far into the future. as lambert notes, prussia no longer exists, so it's very possible that the solution to the palestinian problem will end up being that palestine no longer exists [things are pretty much going that way even now].
sharia law. yeah, i hate that too. but as i said in my reply to three wickets, the voters in gaza apparently felt like hamas was doing more for them than were fatah, the israelis, or the americans.
i've read that even a lot of the gazans who voted for hamas are against the religious fundamentalism, but they wanted the schools and the hospitals and the social services that hamas was willing to spend money on. had any of the more secular entities - fatah [the american-preferred puppet], israel, america itself - been willing to provide basic social services, there's a good chance the palestinians would not have turned to the religious zealots.
then again, maybe not, but we've pretty much proven over and over again that brutal occupation doesn't win over hearts and minds. pretty much you just have to decimate the population you're occupying if you want to neutralize opposition and have chosen to not go the humanitarian route.
Closest
Of all the points of view expressed in this discussion, the one I am closest to is madamab's. I have no problem in criticizing Israel when it's international actions are wrong, which, I think, is most of the time these days. But, I also think that while recognizing this, talking about "unfounding" is unrealistic.
Like it or not Israel has nuclear weapons, and there's an appreciable probability that it will use them if it thinks its survival is threatened. So if the Mideast is to continue to exist as a habitable place, there can be no "unfounding" of Israel.
There has to be another solution.
End our own empire...
... and let Israel, a state like any other, continue to defend its own without our help.
"The problem" is not ours to solve.
I agree
I believe Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself.
Not only that. I think we ought to exit our armed forces from the Middle East, ration oil so that we live on our own domestic consumption, and perhaps what we can get from Canada, and develop alternative energy capacity on an emergency basis equivalent to the effort we put in during WWII to supply our allies with War material.
Anti Semitism
It's a stressful economic time in the world, and the analagous rise of anti-semitism in this country in the name of progressivism or empathy or whatever has me absolutely gobsmacked. It is as ugly as it is predictable. If I/P is a genuine concern, why are progressives so fundamentally unknowledgeable about the Middle East (separate the Greenwalds, Scahills, Hedges who have started a cottage industry in anti Israelism with their rabble rousing easy to swallow unnuanced points of view), why are progressives uninterested in the 27 other war zones around the world where people are dying, being beheaded. Why are progressives so uninformed about economics. Progressives are peace activists (we need those) from the early decade who are kicking around now for other things to get angry about or make money doing, now that their anti war candidate has become Potus.
Evidence, please
You write:
Really? Who? Linky goodness, please.
You've got me there
It's an opinion. I've been in and out of the country like some kind of deliveryman for most of the decade, close to the news, but nowhere near the blogosphere. So you're probably right. But I have been diligently catching up on said progressives and their writing blogging more recently. I landed for a couple of years in the late 90s in SF when everyone was still a liberal, some Naderites. I come back a decade later, and everyone on the left is a progressive.
But your diligence doesn't extend...
... to actually having any evidence for your claims? I yield to nobody in my disdain for career "progressives," but when I do a takedown, I can cite their posts to back me up.
And please consider this a third request
Posts? Linky goodness? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
Zionism
and the failure of liberalism.
Peter Beinart
I thought the Beinart essay in the Times Book Review last month was pious, self indulgent drivel. Maybe I can muster up the courage to have another read, or not. :)
I found Kerstein's essay interesting
beyond just the topic of this thread. Applies to a lot of the widely observed ineffectuality of liberals.
"Liberalism has always been, generally speaking, a form of middle class secular messianism; an edifying millenialism for those with much money and many guns between them and reality."
"More than anything else, liberalism has said much and done little at the moments when it really mattered."
Turkey
Turkey has given up on joining the Eurozone given the current sad state of that economic union. They have decided to face East. Can't say I blame them.
That sounds interesting
Got a link?
The thing about links
The thing about links is that I become a porter for you for other people's reporting and opinions. Still links are helpful if one or two data points predominantly informs the perspective. In this case, the opinion is derived from everything I've read and seen over the past few years as well as from the time I've spent in meetings and discussion with Turks here and over there in Istanbul, European and Asian side. I can sometimes process information in my own head.
Well, I'd like to make a second request
Thanks for the respect
Here's a link after the fact from today no less. See, no hands mom. Sorry for the confirmation bias, if there is any. And sorry to disturb. I won't be here long.
Thank you
I don't want the threads crapped up with opinion that can't be supported when challenged. If I want to wade through that, I can go read Kos.
Bookmark.
.