The end of torture as entertainment?

I'll believe it when it happens, though production costs must be very high. I get some sense that the reactionary fervor at Fox for both news and entertainment might have peaked. Will be interesting to see which way the programming migrates given the economic strain on the industry and their audience.

People who watch this aren't pro-torture, just like playing Call of Duty doesn't make you wanna go out and shoot people. People understand fantasy. Besides, the torture was such a small part of the story line. The bulk of the story lines deal with political intrigue. Torture probably accounts for 1% of the total show. After so many seasons, it's hard for 24 to be original. You can only chase down nukes so many times without losing ratings.

I'm more worried about the arrogance in folks who assume people can't understand the difference between fact and fiction.

I have a hard time imagining that. Just as I have a hard time imagining all the anti-Da Vinci Code crusaders actually read the book. The right doesn't have a monopoly on ignorant soap boxes.

So I wouldn't sit through that series because he bores me. But I have read Da Vinci Code, good entertainment, better than the movie. Who are these crusaders.

The Dean of West Point begs to differ:

At other moments, the discussion was more strained. Finnegan told the producers that “24,” by suggesting that the U.S. government perpetrates myriad forms of torture, hurts the country’s image internationally. Finnegan, who is a lawyer, has for a number of years taught a course on the laws of war to West Point seniors—cadets who would soon be commanders in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. He always tries, he said, to get his students to sort out not just what is legal but what is right. However, it had become increasingly hard to convince some cadets that America had to respect the rule of law and human rights, even when terrorists did not. One reason for the growing resistance, he suggested, was misperceptions spread by “24,” which was exceptionally popular with his students. As he told me, “The kids see it, and say, ‘If torture is wrong, what about “24”?’ ” He continued, “The disturbing thing is that although torture may cause Jack Bauer some angst, it is always the patriotic thing to do.”

Gary Solis, a retired law professor who designed and taught the Law of War for Commanders curriculum at West Point, told me that he had similar arguments with his students. He said that, under both U.S. and international law, “Jack Bauer is a criminal. In real life, he would be prosecuted.” Yet the motto of many of his students was identical to Jack Bauer’s: “Whatever it takes.” His students were particularly impressed by a scene in which Bauer barges into a room where a stubborn suspect is being held, shoots him in one leg, and threatens to shoot the other if he doesn’t talk. In less than ten seconds, the suspect reveals that his associates plan to assassinate the Secretary of Defense. Solis told me, “I tried to impress on them that this technique would open the wrong doors, but it was like trying to stomp out an anthill.”

24 just fun? Not to U.S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, the dean of the United States Military Academy at West Point, visited the show's set last fall "to voice their concern that the show's central political premise--that the letter of American law must be sacrificed for the country's security--was having a toxic effect.

"In their view, the show promoted unethical and illegal behavior and had adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers," writes Jane Mayer in The New Yorker.

They can draw ideological conclusions about people, based on their entertainment choices.

To get rid of "torture as entertainment" you'd also have to eliminate things like Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rodriguez movies, a lot of video games, and the entire horror movie industry.

But guess what, I like all of those things, and can still grok that torture is inhuman and ineffective.

I knew plenty of liberals that like "24". It had interesting female characters, who's existence wasn't restricted to Refridgerator Girl status(though there were plenty of those too). You can't beat the pacing in a regular format show.

Didn't see my post was redundant

Never seen 24 buti Isn't there a website the watches Fox so we don't have to? Just kidding -- I like House but come to think of it, the title character's flaunting the law/rules is portrayed as admirable.

There are two separate questions here. One is "Do symbolic patterns presented in art affect our thoughts, emotions, and values?" The other is "Does '24' promote torture?" I haven't watched '24' -- I don't have half enough time to watch, read, consider the things I desperately want to interact with, so I'm not going to spend the time I have on something that has not presented itself as valuable. But people who "understand fantasy" in a way that seals them off from engagement with their world are autistic or psychopathic. The rest of us live in complex engagement with our environment.

People stay with narratives with which they feel an emotional connection, and it's usually an identification with the protagonist or with some attribute of the protagonist. Just as an example, the other narrative series mentioned in the post is House. More than anything else, Houseis about power and provides a fantasy where different manifestations (professional, emotional, social, intellectual) are played out. So what's the emotional connection with Jack Bauer's torture?

I admit to liking escapism. I do like some of what's on TV today (check out the posts in the Liberator thread for clues to what) and I love Eureka, on Syfy. "Human Target," on Fox, is fun to watch; but like anything with Jackie Chan in it, it's so clearly not real that it's tough to believe anybody can't tell. (The show is based on a comic book.)

"24" was, IIRC, supposed to be w's favorite show for awhile. "The Unit" was supposed to be about ... the Green Berets / Rangers / Delta Force ... and was largely just a soap opera splashed with pyrotechnics and gory makeup. (I remember recognizing a building from downtown LA in an episode that was supposedly taking place in Prague.) CBS ditched that aging "action drama" more than a year ago.

Now, if we were all as smart as nihil obstet, not only would "Biggest loser," "Survivor," and Dr. Phil fade back into well-deserved obscurity, there might be actual intelligent drama still on television. Costs of scripted shows are rising astronomically, but for some networks (notably not Fox, evidently) it's apparently worth the effort - witness "White Collar," "Burn Notice," "Eureka," and "The Closer." (Oh, and another one bites the dust: "Saving Grace" won't have a 5th season, thank Ceiling Cat, FSM and all the gods....)

Fox fuxed up with House, too -- firing House's team and forcing that endless series of "Sudden Death" firings really knocked a hole in what was once an interesting show.

I watch a lot of Olbermann and Maddow nowadays.

guilty watching FOX. But I rationalized...can't recall how, but I did.

Mostly, I'm a Lostie. Gonna be tough when it ends this year.

I watched the first season of 24. When it jumped the shark with way too many stoooopid things done, mostly by female characters, I could barely finish it.

I dipped back in due to "critical acclaim," but it was when Bauer was going on Abu Graib torture scenes on his own brother, iirc. It just seemed too damn stupid. Then, writeups said this year's NYC setting would be really good. No. Not good. Boring. And the lighting bothers me.

But, oh, Summer Glau as that protector Terminatrix....

in that a private military firm was threatening to attack the United States. Even self-proclaimed progressives like Rhodes "Scholar" Rachel Maddow or the Precious himself won't provide us with a sustained critique that outsourcing our "homeland security" to corporations is deleterious on so many levels. Instead the predominant critiques of invasions/occupations and other "defense"/"security" policy revolve around being tough meanies/nice diplomats or approaching it as if it were a chess game that only "experts" understand (e.g., the pony promise to deploy troops from Iraq and move our "chess pieces" to the Af-Pak border--all the while ignoring that there are more mercenaries and contractors than troops involved with these occupations, as PMFs need govt-sanctioned markets like the insurance and finance parasites).

This season is a disappointment in terms of political interpretations. It's the hackneyed foreigners-haz-missles and chess-game diplomacy storyline that our legacy parties, IR "scholars," and foreign correspondents continually feed us.

Yes--the torture, i can live without.

Even though i've abstained from teebee "news" and paying the cable company (we have one of those gadgets that lets you watch three channels), i (unfortunately?) continue to watch "24" and "30 Rock." After this season, i'm done with "24," and will only have to ween myself off of "30 Rock" to completely free myself from the teebee.

What I occasionally catch and enjoy is MI-5 on public television. The Brit spies have a real attitude about the American CIA. And granted they are no angels... but I can have my cake and eat it, too, in a way. Since Americans and the MI-5 management aside from regulars are sometimes demonized... it reminds me about corrupt authority in intelligence ... with thumb not pressing on the US scale of righteousness .. and gives the Brit impression of American intelligence chutzpah abroad. Again, I know they all have it and become desensitized.

I am old enough to have watched original Mission Impossible.. which was so not like Cruise's movie.. but more like .. that tv show Leverage in a way.... the team work... but I was naive and apolitical at that point... and didn't grasp the dark side... spies on our side, whether disavowed by govt. or not, were the good guys (duh.. why would govt disavow them... I did not ponder that too long).

There was an old Ray Marsden Brit drama the Sandpipers I used to be fascinated by... and when I rented it a while back I was horrified at the callousness of it and manipulations of the spies to disrupt governments, etc. Not romantic any more, at all. Just plain creepy. Dramatic... but Marsden character a ruthless bastard and his bosses even worse.

When I watched Pulp Fiction I was conscious of the titillation of the violence and it made me VERY angry. It got such raves and that annoyed me too. IMHO, of course.

Wonder about Hurt Locker after reading Pilger's negative take on it. Everyone has their own measure... of course... but one does wonder re messages being sent to country's youth, too.

And jumping away from the physical violence.... with Simon Cowell as a national authority figure... I worry. Anti-feeling social cultivation. Anti-empathy. Authoritarian following.. identify and admire the aggressor.

... I don't watch it. Therefore, I don't watch 24....