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Biden vs. Ryan open thread

Gee, this sure is interesting. I'm listening with half an ear and researching Walmart on the twitter. So a bit of binocular vision here.

Oh, Libya. "Whatever mistakes were made will never be made again." Alrighty, then.

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DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/seanoconnz/status/256564495118381056

Submitted by lambert on

Biden's snickers are really obnoxious. I think all Ryan has to do is hold is own....

Submitted by MontanaMaven on

Snickers and sighs reinforce the pointy headed liberals thing.

Submitted by lambert on

She's not controlling Biden (which would be better for Biden).

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

I saw some tweets about how the debate went into chaos. Watching it on Twitter is much more fun.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/anamariecox/status/256568390863446016

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/nicole_hong/status/256570263725027331

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/vpaige/status/256570860440272896

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/256571251605241856

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/gjhubert/status/256572219512201216

Submitted by lambert on

Biden's got better command of the issues (as he ought to).

And Biden's better at marshaling a conclusion from the detail (as he should be).

But it's ridiculous to compare Ryan to Palin as a politician: Zero charisma, to start. One always has the sense with Palin that she could say anything. It was fun! Ryan is much more disciplined and not fun. His ideas are horrible and he's an ideologue in a way that Palin never was.

Biden is good at cornering Ryan on "What would you do differently" and Ryan is very bad at getting out of the corner. Unfortunately -- and like nobody cares about the facts, nobody cares about this either -- that's not a function of Biden vs. Ryan, but how similar the two parties are.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

promise is not to "Privatize Social Security." What the heck?

Seniors, and near seniors, will have more reason after this debate, to vote for Romney and Ryan, if maintaining safety net benefits is a top priority.

[Personally, we're voting third party, But several of our fiftyish cohorts, are switching parties due to the Republican pledge to leave benefits alone for near retirees.]

Submitted by lambert on

... but that Ryan never claimed that. He was making a different bad point, that JFK caused growth with tax cuts. If Ryan were better, he would have nailed Biden to the wall with one.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/slackmistress/status/256571855811538946

Submitted by lambert on

... is that he's got two different voices: His prepared voice, and his improvising voice. Biden has only one voice. That's Ryan's difficulty; he has no capacity to gather his forces for a riposte.

With all due respect to emptywheel etc., nobody's listening for facts in the debates. If Ryan were better, Biden would come off as if he were kicking a puppy. But Ryan, technically, is not very good. Biden isn't very good either, but he's a lot better than Ryan.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/NatashaChart/status/256578540399644672

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

Now, I'm listening via satellite radio, not watching.

But it seems that the snickering and interruptions have been a bit over-the-top.

My recollection is that Al Gore only sighed a couple of times.

Curious to see how this plays out. (Doesn't help that Biden's old enough to be Ryan's father, either.)

letsgetitdone's picture
Submitted by letsgetitdone on

Biden laughing at Ryan. Generally, that's not good tactics in a debate, but I think we have to take into account who Biden is. he's so good-natured (seemingly) and such a swell guy, that he gets to laugh and smile and snicker where it would be unseemly in other people, like Gore or Obama. Maybe because they have an arrogant persona, which Biden doesn't project.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

Seriously, I listened to it (I did not watch it), so maybe I missed some context.

Generally, I'm turned off by those tactics, under any circumstances. And I would have thought that the visuals would have been bad, since Ryan is young enough to be Biden's son.

Honestly, I wouldn't vote for either one, so the whole thing amounted to a little "entertainment value" for me.

If my Netflix DVDs had arrived on time, I probably wouldn't even have listened to it. Hope there's no hard feelings that I disagree with you, on this one. :-)

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/jillstein2012/status/256579684127617024

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

any social issue being the deciding factor in this election.

Jill needs to concentrate on the economy, and social safety net issues. (Oh, and getting us out of declared and undeclared wars).

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/vastleft/status/256581489590947840

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/NatashaChart/status/256581973202591744

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/256582641573306369

Submitted by libbyliberal on

Biden is Mr. rotten status quo smug and Ryan is Mr. earnest young scary fanatic. Both are BFF of white collar criminals and are war mongers. Jingoism and bullshit. Future is doom no matter who wins.

And the real citizen politicians of conscience are kept off the telly. What a country.

Submitted by lambert on

Frankly, I don't care what the twitterers feel.... It's fun, but also infested with operatives and tribalists of all sorts.

I care if the twitterers report, but this is not reporting; it's on-the-fly framing. BFD.

Submitted by lambert on

Which it kinda was IMNSHO.

Biden beat Ryan, no question. But then he should have beaten him.

It will be interesting to see what the "scientific poll" says, the focus groups, etc.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/seanpaulkelley/status/256583698709901314

https://twitter.com/Shakestweetz/status/256583521378902017

https://twitter.com/vastleft/status/256584008337592321

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

David Gergen agrees with me about Biden.

Says Ryan won on style, Biden on substance. But Ryan won overall.

Yikes!

Submitted by lambert on

... was to fire up the base. "This was not for the independents." May account for the big difference between Shakes and Tim Pool (and me, to be fair). What looks like a mountain of goodness to a D might look like a molehill to a non-D.

Submitted by lambert on

We'll see if it was a setup for Obama (people Googling it, says CNN).

Submitted by lambert on

71% thought Biden did better than they thought he would

55% thought Ryan did worse than expected

Ryan wins among "better vision of the future"

But "care about and understand me" goes Biden

33% Biden

33% Ryan

33% Undecided

* * *

Both pro- and anti- women don't like Biden's interruptions.

Alexa's picture
Submitted by Alexa on

Mr. Alexa and I are independents (if you include folks voting third-party, this election).

We see this as a draw, along the same lines as Gergen's assessment.

Many of the "undecideds" won't know policy. If they vote on style, I believe that Ryan won.

Biden knows policy.

But for those potential voters coming from the left, he's too corporatist.

Extreme right-wingers won't be swayed, because they hate Obama.

So Biden's best bet will be to win over some of the conservative Democrats, and some of the "low information voters" who are not ideological.

Going to check out Real Clear Politics' polls over the next several days.

CNN just announced that Ryan won among their "undecideds" focus group.

DCblogger's picture
Submitted by DCblogger on

https://twitter.com/davidcnswanson/status/256589109936656384

letsgetitdone's picture
Submitted by letsgetitdone on

crushed him. I didn't mind the grinning and laughing at Ryan at all. It was done in a way that fits Biden's colorful personality. More importantly, Ryan's the wonk of the R Party. Mr. Genius. Yet an old broken down quasi-new dealer can eat his lunch on the both the emotions and the facts. There's no question about who would make the better VP. And there was no question about the poisonous nature of the Ryan/Romney policies. Ryan's still got a long way to go to be able to command any kind of popular support.

Submitted by lambert on

and Ryan hit a grounder instead of knocking it out of the park.

Biden blamed the intelligence agencies, said it would never happen again, and (correctly) slammed Romney for making political hay while the bodies weren't even cold (to mix metaphors).

Ryan could have nailed Biden on failure to take responsibility and blame shifting ("there you go again!") but did not. Not quite ready for prime time.